I think that bad things happen to good and bad people, people just tend to notice more when bad things happen to good people because people tend to care more about good people...as awful as that sounds. any thoughts?
I agree with Katie because when bad things happen to bad people others just put it off saying that "oh they deserved it", but when bad events happen to good people, others think that they did not deserve the bad things that happened to them and they become sorry for those people.
Katie I agree with you however, I think that bad things happen to people to make them stronger and better people and that they can be used for the better.
I'm not sure. I do agree that bad things happen to everybody, good or bad, but I don't think it's noticed more when it happens to good people. In fact, I think it all depends on the person. Good people tend to be optimistic and positive and be able to move on from the bad things as opposed to bad people who have the tendency to dwell on the negative. "Bad people" therefore escalate their own misfortune.
@ Katie I agree that people notice more when bad things happen to good people and that when bad things happen to bad people we tend to think that they deserved it that they had it coming.
I agree in the sense that bad things happen to both good and bad people. But, I also think that both good and bad people want it to be noticed, in a "hey, no fair" type of way. People sometimes make a bigger deal out of it than it usually is.
How can we truly define a good person? Do we define Enkidu as a good person even though he ends up cursing someone?? Are people really good or bad? Just some thoughts! :-)
'Why do bad things happen to good people?' she asks. Wow. Will that question ever cease to be asked? Bad things happen to good people. Why do good things happen to bad people? And for that matter, why do good things happen to good people and bad tings to bad people? Short answer: Because. There is not an all-seeing being purposely sprinkling events on people. It doesn't matter how 'good' or 'bad' you are according to other people. You are a person, and things happen to you. There isn't a definition of good or bad set in stone. Therefore, bad things do not happen to good people. Things happen to people and nothing more.
Katie, everybody has the capability to be both. In every situation and every decision there comes a choice to be a "good" person and a "bad" person. But, you also have to remember, that what's good to one person may be bad to another. It can't truly be defined.
Rachel S. I agree with you but are bad things really necessary in life for us to learn from them? Can we learn from only good experiences or are bad experiences necessary for learning??
I don't think that it's really our place to judge whether or not someone is a good or bad person. I think that you have to personally get to know someone to make an opinion of them before you can tell if they're good or bad. Yet, ultimately I believe it's not our place to judge someone.
I think that one cannot truly define what "good" is because everyone had different looks on what being "good" means, but if someone is selfless towards others and always wants to help others in harms way then that person is good. Enkidu, although he cursed someone, took the curse away and he did help Gilgamesh on his journey so although he may not be all good, there is some good in Enkidu.
@Jade...I agree with what you think. Gilgamesh wanted immortality and I think going on his journey made him think that he may become immortal. I also think that he thought that he might get noticed and maybe get credit for the journey to Humbaba, under Enkidu's shadow, because after all, it was Enkidu who had more knowledge...any thoughts?
Kate, I think that bad things are vital to life. Good things are, too. But through bad things we see the beauty in life and appreciate what we have. Without bad, there wouldn't really be a "good". If that makes sense.
Bsiley Cordero We discussed this on Friday I think enkidu had more experience in the wild but Gilgamesh was still a smart ruler that had a lot of wisdom himself. I don’t think we can accurately say that one character had more experience than the other.
Julia It did sorta seem like Gilgamesh was taking a lot of credit for killing Humbaba. He was cowardly about killing Humbaba when Humbaba was begging for his life, and it was Enkidu who convinced him to kill him. It almost seems like Gilgamesh is a little kid getting told what to do from his parent (Enkidu), weird.
@Thomas. He gained importance. His death was memorialized and he was remembered as a brother to Gilgamesh. He lost his innocence and therefore his happiness to some degree, but he gained being a man. As a member of our race, you can be entombed and remembered for generations. Some wild animals mourn, but they are forced to carry on. No individuals are remembered. Enkidu gained a place in the world.
I agree with the person in the circle, who said the gilgamesh should not have been the hero. Because everything he's done in the book is selfish. He may have really cared for Enkidu and made a statue of him. But mostly everything else he did was for himself
Jill I totally understand what your saying. Without having "bad" experiences in our lives we wouldn't have any perspective on what was truly good. Did Gilgamesh miss out on his opportunity on doing something good in his life by pursuing his goal of immortality? It seemed like sorta a waste of time to me.
@Thomas I think that Enkidu gained knowledge about a different kind of world that we isn't used to. Like the different foods and the beer. I think he lost his innocence because he has more knowledge in a sense and the fact that he had courtship with a prostitute.
Do you think that Enkidu wanted to kill Humbaba out of a protective instinct to protect his own life? Would we do that if we were in a modern day type of situation?
baileyc i dont think it seems like Enkidu is Gilgamesh's father figure at all. Gilgamesh was the one who encouraged them to make the journey in the first place and acted more like a father figure encouraging him than anything.
Thomas! I think that Enkidu gained some experience and exposure to life. He broke out of his little world and saw the whole of it, not just what he knew. But he lost that safety and little bubble of happy that he was in. "The truth hurts", but it's also important to acknowledge.
In response to Thomas, I think that Enkidu really did not gain anything from becoming civilized. He lost his innocence and was exposed to prostitutes and beer and the power of crowd mentality. He let himself be seduced because he didn't even know what was happening. He let Gilgamesh talk him into going on the crazy adventure of killing Humbaba for no reason. Before being civilized, he lived with nature and had no flaws. The only thing he lacked was knowledge of the world, but that was probably knowledge he could have gone on happily without knowing.
@Thomas I think that Enkidu gained a fame and glory that would be remembered throughout time and a story that would be passed down forever. But through this gain he also lost his innocence and free will, since after meeting Gilgamesh he was essentially his slave. We also have to consider different points of view. To Gilgamesh, losing Enkidu's innocence was probably not a loss. Gilgamesh would probably say that both of these things are gains.
@Rachel and Katie, Rachel, you just brought up a really good point. But, Enkidu didn't really want to kill Humbaba at first. Do you think it was for protection of Gilgamesh? Why?
Rachel S Since Enkidu used to live in the wilderness with Humbaba, I think it definitely was a protective instinct. I think he had seen Humbaba's power and knew that if Gilgamesh didn't kill him in that instant, then he never would and many more beings would be in danger...if that makes sense.
@Jade. True, he was selfish, but does that define a hero? We tend to think of heroes as people who help others, but in terms of the hero's journey is that what they are? I don't think so. He went on a journey and learned from it and emerged changed. That is what a hero is in this context.
@Jade Looking at the hero's journey on Moritz page, i would agree he shouldn't be the hero because he doesn't complete it. The Ultimate Boon The ultimate boon is the achievement of the goal of the quest. It is what the person went on the journey to get. All the previous steps serve to prepare and purify the person for this step, since in many myths the boon is something transcendent like the elixir of life itself, or a plant that supplies immortality, or the holy grail.
I agree that Enkidu was probably protecting himself alongside Gilgamesh. It comes back to the question of whether or not Enkidu could be an encouraging fatherly figure or not.
Erica- I think that part of it was that Enkidu wanted to protect Gilgamesh, but I think he also wanted Gilgamesh to end Humbaba's life because they traveled so far to reach him, that it may have been a waste of travel if Humbaba did not die in the end.
Gilgamesh goes through trial after trial after trial, like we still do today. What gives Gilgamesh (or us) drive to continue even though there could be another trial right around the corner?
Rachel, I think that it was out of protective instinct that Enkidu told Gilgamesh to kill Humbaba. Before embarking on the journey, Enkidu had no interest in even going and getting near the monster, but once he was there, he saw no choice but to kill Humbaba or be killed. I think today, that is an accepted reason to cause harm to others if we fear our own safety.
@Rachel I think that Gilgamesh killed Humbaba because he had such a big ego. I dont really think it was a protective instinct. Also that he had Enkidu with him it made him even more excited about killing Humbaba because he had more back up. I don't think that would happen in a modern day situtation though because life today is so much more different then in this story. There would be a different effect.
Baileyc @julian. I think that he is a hero to the people because he was being selfish and taking all the acknowledgment of killing the monster humaba. He didn’t do this for the people he just did this to gain popularity amongst his people.
Rachel S and Erica But wasn't Enkidu supposed to be "given" to Gilgamesh as his equal? Was he killed because he had overstepped his boundaries by being a fatherly figure?
@Joe. Animals lack written history. Giving the benefit of the doubt, they have an oral history. But we as humans know that not to be reliable or lasting. Thus, Gilgamesh gained a (fairly) permanent place in history by joining with humanity.
I think we find that drive from wanting to find the best in life. You can't go anywhere in life if you shut down because you're scared of what awaits you. So I think it comes down to wanting to live life to the fullest and keep a positive perspective. Also, there could be good things around the corner instead of a bad trial but you won't ever know that until you keep going and find out what awaits you.
baileyc @julia. i dont think he had any other option than to go with him he was presured by the community to go in order to protect them both along their journey.
@Brain Was Enkidu's purpose in the novel to serve as a boundary to Gilgamesh? Gilgamesh was fearless until Enkidu died, and then he feared death. Was Enkidu's purpose to cause Gilgamesh to become more human and create fear?
@Rachel. JUst kidding. I thought you asked about Gilgamesh. I think that Enkidu went along with killing Humbaba because, yes, it was a protective instinct since he lived in the forest.I still dont think he would have done it today though because now and then is so much different.
baileyc As relating to the bible, do you think that god gave these people visons about what was to come. Much like the dreams the people have throught this story?
Yes, I think Enkidu's motives for going on this journey were quite different from Gilgamesh's. Gilgamesh's sole purpose was to obtain glory and potentially eternal life, both things that only benefited him. Enkidu went on the journey knowing how illogical and dangerous it was but I think it's safe to say he decided to go in order to watch over Gilgamesh. Enkidu was made as a sort of "twin" to Gilgamesh but clearly has better values. What an interesting literary technique!
In what other texts do we see characters who are very similar but one seems to have the "better" morals or characteristics?
@Thomas: Just because he failed to become immortal, it doesn't mean he didn't complete his journey. He was not still searching for an answer when the story ended. He found the way to become immortal, and he failed. By doing so, he concluded his journey as there was nowhere left to go in terms of becoming immortal.
I think that Enikidu's death was definitely an eye opener for Gilgamesh and I believe that his death did make Gilgamesh more human, although I do not believe that Enkidu thought of that as his purpose in life.
Erica I think he definitely was a boundary. But overall I think that Enkidu served as a concience (sorry I can't spell) for Gilgamesh. He was always the one deciding between right and wrong, e.g. the sleeping with the wives before marriage. Enkidu thinks thats wrong which causes there first little tiff. :-)
I think that's a good point but I still think it remains unclear why Enkidu was the first to die. However, could Enkidu just have been fulfilling the role as good friend? Isn't it common for friends to step up and protect each other? What makes a good friend?
@Joe. Oral history IS word of mouth. And through games of telephone and numerous discussions in history we found that it is not reliable and not lasting. And that's assuming animals tell stories, which science would suggest as doubtful. Good job playing Devil's Advocate, but I think this has run its course.
Joe Even if animals did pass down stories... in their own special language I guess.... how would we know about it and how could we ever relate to their stories? If that makes sense.
I don't think that Enkidu was killed for being a fatherly figure. He was being a good friend; helping, encouraging and warning Gilgamesh of the things that they were doing. Enkidu was created as his equal. Maybe Gilgamesh just didn't know how to hold his half of the bargain. Making it seem like Enkidu was over-stepping his role.
I think that God surprises people in a sense and that totally changes the way people think they're going. But in the story it seemed like the gods gave them the dreams to let them know that something might happen if you go in that direction like what Gilgamesh and Enkidu dreamed about.
Erica, I think that Enkidu was in the story as a lesson to Gilgamesh. He was an example of a good person in contrast to Gilgamesh and Gilgamesh had to watch Enkidu be the good person and die. He was a lesson to show Gilgamesh that even the best people have to die at some point, and that he would never have immortality.
In reference to your comment earlier where you said that there is no correlation between experiences in people's lives and what happens to them, would you also say Enkidu entering Gilgamesh's life is just a coincidence?
Joe- I kind of get what you're saying about the animals. They probably don't have stories exactly, but in animals, the parents are expected to care for their young and teach them necessary life skills before they "leave the nest". That's why animals know where to migrate to, know where to hunt, etc. Isn't that kind of a form of passing down information?
@Paige. In terms of the story, I would say not. It's clear throughout the story that Gods intentionally cause certain things to happen. We read about them creating Enkidu as a direct response to Gilgamesh's arrogance. My previous comments were in respect to real life, which I feel safe assuming this story isn't.
@kylees I think that the enkidu is a sacrifice, that showed gilgamesh what could have been him. Because the gods decided enkidu should die because they killed humbaba together. So it could have been gilgamesh who would have to die, but enkidu took it for him.
Erica True, yet we all have our own set of values, and the differences in Enkidu and Gilgamesh caused Enkidu to act like a fatherly figure. He believed that Gilgamesh was wrong so he acted on it by persuading him in a different direction. Theres a difference between being critical of ourselves and trying to fix others' flaws. This probably doesn't make any sense to anyone but me-sorry.
baileyc @allison. How do they accuratly predict the biblical stories years ahead of the time the bible was written. Were they talking about the same evnts?
I don't think it was hypocritical of Enkidu. I think he meant it out of goodness and wanting the best for Gilgamesh; looking out for him. Not in a way like "I'm better than you. I wouldn't do that."
@Rachel. No, I'm not speculating. I'm stating: Things happen. There is cause and effect, but I do not buy into a supreme being deciding EVERYTHING that happens to us. I do not wish to offend anyone, but such specific interference seems unlikely to me.
Julia I think that Enkidu and Gilgamesh are memorable to different people. Their stories can leave more of an impact depending on the situation you are experiencing.
I think that Enkidu is the most memorable because he was just this random hairy guy who became this famous dude who defeated humbaba and the bull of the heavens and he died leaving a legacy.
I think that Gilgamesh is a more memorable character because in the end it is his ultimate journey for immortality, Enkidu's death just caused that journey for Gilgamesh to begin.
baileyc @julia. I think Gilgamesh is more memorable becuase the whole story is based off him, and the poeple who wrote it obviouly admired him over Enkidu since they depict him in such a heroic sense.
I understand where you're coming from but do you think we have control over every aspect of our life? Is their a higher power determining what is allowed to happen versus what is not allowed to happen or, do we determine all of that on our own?
Julia, I think that it depends on what characteristics you are considering, but personally I think that Gilgamesh is more memorable. He had more flaws, he was kind of a ridiculous picture of a leader. People tend to remember the outrageous things about people, like sleeping with every woman before she gets married. It's not necessarily the most respectable person that gets remembered, but the least sometimes.
@Julia. As someone who's read the story, Enkidu is more memorable to me because of his behaviors throughout the book. In terms of history, Gilgamesh is more memorable by far. Before I knew anything of this story, I knew the name 'Gilgamesh' and I assume there are others in the world who know the name and will never learn of Enkidu.
This is just my opinion. But, in what I believe; God doesn't CONTROL everything. He has access to everything, but ultimately, we choose. He gives us free will.
What aspects of the Epic of Gilgamesh allowed it to be passed down for so long? Is there some sort of theme or lesson the people of Mesopotamia wanted to be passed down for generations?
Well he was fatherly when he pointed Gilgamesh in the right direction (or what he thought was the right direction) and he was brotherly when he was Gilgameshes friend, and he helped decipher his dreams and give him hope. That help?
Erica- I think that if Gilgamesh did not acknowledge Enkidu's death then he would not have wanted immortality as bad. Seeing death just caused Gilgamesh to fear death making Gilgamesh want to achieve immortality.
Katie- Don't brothers point you in the right direction too? Was he really a male figure in Gilgamesh's life or was he more of a conscience and driving force?
paigel, the many lessons throughout the book still can apply today. Ultimately, I believe it was Gilgamesh wanting to become immortal that kept this story alive. Many of the people wanted to become immortal so they did not have to go to Irkalla or any underworld.
baileyc @julia. I think they it was simply because he was their king and they didn’t want to disrespect the king, who they also viewed as godly, and no one who is religious would purposely disrespect their god.
@Kylees i don't think people came up with the story really admires gilgamesh more, it's probably more of the plot, how you can't escape death, but u can leave fame, perhaps this inspires people who read the story to try harder and make something of themselves
@Rachel: Sorry, that's a bit of a personal question. I simply wanted to indicate the difference between the story where gods and goddesses treat their subjects as a dollhouse, throwing in new creations like Enkidu willy-nilly and real life, where gods are invisible and everyone comes from a set of two parents.
Erica- I think that because Enkidu was almost like a brother to Gilgamesh, the impact of his death was greater then one of his enemies like Humbaba who Gilgamesh wanted to die in the first place. I think Gilgamesh had second thoughts on killing Humbaba because he knew death was such a big factor.
Katie- No, I didn't. I added that he might also be a set of boundaries? Is that kind of what a conscience is? Except...did Enkidu really enforce those boundaries? He argued with Gilgamesh over Humbaba but eventually gave into what he wanted.
I think that is a really good question. We don't really know what was so bad about Humbaba in the first place. He was just a monster that needed to be killed in Gilgamesh's eyes. Why don't we question his death and why he had to die? What if his claims to be a good monster and protect the forest were true?
baileyc @allison. This text was written a long time before the bible and that's what sparked my question. Were these events just kept alive by people pasing them on for generations or was it really these events that the bible is based off of, and they just viewed it in a different way between the two texts?
I was just in general referring to if God, or the gods in the book are controlling everything in everyone's lives or if there is free will choice involved?
Brain- Did Gilgamesh's want for immortality stem from a fear of death, which he admitted once Enkidu died? OR Was it because he loved Enkidu and, because he was arrogant, he didn't want others to have to experience his death because he believed he was well-loved?
I agree with what Ashley just said. One of the main themes of this book was definitely human struggle with death. Its one of the aspects of the book that many of us can relate to.
Kylee- Good question! That could have very well been the case. Why then did all of the elders look down upon him? Could he have made mistakes before? But isn't that a human quality, so why did they look down upon Humbaba and none of the other gods who had human qualities?
Erica- I believe that it is a little of both because he did have a selfishness because he wanted to live for ever while he did not care about others mortality, but he was also very scared of dying and that was another reason that he did want to be immortal.
@Rachel: In the book, I'd say the gods can manipulate the world any way they want, while at the same time they let their subjects go where they choose. Like playing with living toys.
I don't know I can't really answer that. I think that these events were kept alive in some aspect but i dont think that the bible is based off of these events. I think the bible is a completely different story.
Like a lot of them said in the blog I also think that bad things happen to everyone. I think bad things need to happen in order to appreciate a good thing. I don’t think it is right to judge if a person is good or bad by what events happen to them. Some actions that people choose to do could lead to bad things happening but for the most part bad things happen to everyone.
Some people said Gilgamesh only went on the journey to kill Humbaba for fame. I don’t think it was necessarily fame. I think he wanted to be remembered and feel important. His whole goal was to be immortal and remembered for what he did. When Enkidu died, I think it opened Gilgamesh’s eyes that in fact he was a human and was going to die eventually. I believe also that Enkidu was meant to protect Gilgamesh and to put things into reality for Gilgamesh. I don’t think Gilgamesh would have really thought it through that he was going to die if it weren’t for Enkidu.
In response to the God questions I have to believe that there is a higher power than us to control and keeps things intact. Whether there are multiple gods some people think or just one God, but definitely something higher than us. Someone asked if Enkidu or Gilgamesh will be remembered more positively than the other and I think Enkidu would most likely be because he was interpreted as a friend to Gilgamesh and a protection to him. He taught Gilgamesh life lessons.
I think that bad things happen to good and bad people, people just tend to notice more when bad things happen to good people because people tend to care more about good people...as awful as that sounds. any thoughts?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Katie because when bad things happen to bad people others just put it off saying that "oh they deserved it", but when bad events happen to good people, others think that they did not deserve the bad things that happened to them and they become sorry for those people.
ReplyDelete@Katie, I agree with you. People notice that bad things happen to good people more because they all think that all good things should come their way.
ReplyDeleteKatie I agree with you however, I think that bad things happen to people to make them stronger and better people and that they can be used for the better.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure. I do agree that bad things happen to everybody, good or bad, but I don't think it's noticed more when it happens to good people. In fact, I think it all depends on the person. Good people tend to be optimistic and positive and be able to move on from the bad things as opposed to bad people who have the tendency to dwell on the negative. "Bad people" therefore escalate their own misfortune.
ReplyDelete@ Katie
ReplyDeleteI agree that people notice more when bad things happen to good people and that when bad things happen to bad people we tend to think that they deserved it that they had it coming.
I think Gilgamesh took the trip to kill humbaba just for the fame. He wants to prove that he is strong
ReplyDeleteI agree in the sense that bad things happen to both good and bad people. But, I also think that both good and bad people want it to be noticed, in a "hey, no fair" type of way. People sometimes make a bigger deal out of it than it usually is.
ReplyDeleteHow can we truly define a good person? Do we define Enkidu as a good person even though he ends up cursing someone?? Are people really good or bad? Just some thoughts! :-)
ReplyDelete'Why do bad things happen to good people?' she asks. Wow. Will that question ever cease to be asked? Bad things happen to good people. Why do good things happen to bad people? And for that matter, why do good things happen to good people and bad tings to bad people?
ReplyDeleteShort answer: Because.
There is not an all-seeing being purposely sprinkling events on people. It doesn't matter how 'good' or 'bad' you are according to other people. You are a person, and things happen to you. There isn't a definition of good or bad set in stone. Therefore, bad things do not happen to good people. Things happen to people and nothing more.
Katie, everybody has the capability to be both. In every situation and every decision there comes a choice to be a "good" person and a "bad" person. But, you also have to remember, that what's good to one person may be bad to another. It can't truly be defined.
ReplyDeleteRachel S.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you but are bad things really necessary in life for us to learn from them? Can we learn from only good experiences or are bad experiences necessary for learning??
I have the same question as Katie. What is a god or a bad person. And furthermore, who are we to judge?
ReplyDeletewell if i'm gilgamesh, and the gods wants to kill enkidu, instead of trying to prolong my own life, i would probably go and defy the gods
ReplyDelete*good or bad
ReplyDeleteWord Jillian. No one cares to hear the stories about bad people
ReplyDelete@Katie
ReplyDeleteI don't think that it's really our place to judge whether or not someone is a good or bad person. I think that you have to personally get to know someone to make an opinion of them before you can tell if they're good or bad. Yet, ultimately I believe it's not our place to judge someone.
I think that one cannot truly define what "good" is because everyone had different looks on what being "good" means, but if someone is selfless towards others and always wants to help others in harms way then that person is good. Enkidu, although he cursed someone, took the curse away and he did help Gilgamesh on his journey so although he may not be all good, there is some good in Enkidu.
ReplyDeleteWhat did Enkidu gain in going from primitive to civilized? What did he lose?
ReplyDeletei think we can learn a lot from good experenses but there harder to learn from because we dont dwell on bad experiences.
ReplyDeletebaileyc
@Jade...I agree with what you think. Gilgamesh wanted immortality and I think going on his journey made him think that he may become immortal. I also think that he thought that he might get noticed and maybe get credit for the journey to Humbaba, under Enkidu's shadow, because after all, it was Enkidu who had more knowledge...any thoughts?
ReplyDeleteEnkidu lost his innocence
ReplyDeleteThomas, what do you mean?
ReplyDeleteKate,
ReplyDeleteI think that bad things are vital to life. Good things are, too. But through bad things we see the beauty in life and appreciate what we have. Without bad, there wouldn't really be a "good". If that makes sense.
Bsiley Cordero
ReplyDeleteWe discussed this on Friday I think enkidu had more experience in the wild but Gilgamesh was still a smart ruler that had a lot of wisdom himself. I don’t think we can accurately say that one character had more experience than the other.
Julia
ReplyDeleteIt did sorta seem like Gilgamesh was taking a lot of credit for killing Humbaba. He was cowardly about killing Humbaba when Humbaba was begging for his life, and it was Enkidu who convinced him to kill him. It almost seems like Gilgamesh is a little kid getting told what to do from his parent (Enkidu), weird.
@Thomas. He gained importance. His death was memorialized and he was remembered as a brother to Gilgamesh. He lost his innocence and therefore his happiness to some degree, but he gained being a man. As a member of our race, you can be entombed and remembered for generations. Some wild animals mourn, but they are forced to carry on. No individuals are remembered. Enkidu gained a place in the world.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the person in the circle, who said the gilgamesh should not have been the hero. Because everything he's done in the book is selfish. He may have really cared for Enkidu and made a statue of him. But mostly everything else he did was for himself
ReplyDeleteJill
ReplyDeleteI totally understand what your saying. Without having "bad" experiences in our lives we wouldn't have any perspective on what was truly good. Did Gilgamesh miss out on his opportunity on doing something good in his life by pursuing his goal of immortality? It seemed like sorta a waste of time to me.
@Thomas
ReplyDeleteI think that Enkidu gained knowledge about a different kind of world that we isn't used to. Like the different foods and the beer. I think he lost his innocence because he has more knowledge in a sense and the fact that he had courtship with a prostitute.
@Katie
ReplyDeleteDo you think that Enkidu wanted to kill Humbaba out of a protective instinct to protect his own life? Would we do that if we were in a modern day type of situation?
Do you think Gilgamesh had any satisfaction after the story ended? Any thoughts?
ReplyDeletebaileyc
ReplyDeletei dont think it seems like Enkidu is Gilgamesh's father figure at all. Gilgamesh was the one who encouraged them to make the journey in the first place and acted more like a father figure encouraging him than anything.
Thomas!
ReplyDeleteI think that Enkidu gained some experience and exposure to life. He broke out of his little world and saw the whole of it, not just what he knew. But he lost that safety and little bubble of happy that he was in. "The truth hurts", but it's also important to acknowledge.
In response to Thomas, I think that Enkidu really did not gain anything from becoming civilized. He lost his innocence and was exposed to prostitutes and beer and the power of crowd mentality. He let himself be seduced because he didn't even know what was happening. He let Gilgamesh talk him into going on the crazy adventure of killing Humbaba for no reason. Before being civilized, he lived with nature and had no flaws. The only thing he lacked was knowledge of the world, but that was probably knowledge he could have gone on happily without knowing.
ReplyDelete@Thomas
ReplyDeleteI think that Enkidu gained a fame and glory that would be remembered throughout time and a story that would be passed down forever. But through this gain he also lost his innocence and free will, since after meeting Gilgamesh he was essentially his slave. We also have to consider different points of view. To Gilgamesh, losing Enkidu's innocence was probably not a loss. Gilgamesh would probably say that both of these things are gains.
Jillian,
ReplyDeleteBut maybe he is also famous in the animal kingdom because he saves many animals from the hunter. Whats to say animals remember others?
@Rachel and Katie,
ReplyDeleteRachel, you just brought up a really good point. But, Enkidu didn't really want to kill Humbaba at first. Do you think it was for protection of Gilgamesh? Why?
Rachel S
ReplyDeleteSince Enkidu used to live in the wilderness with Humbaba, I think it definitely was a protective instinct. I think he had seen Humbaba's power and knew that if Gilgamesh didn't kill him in that instant, then he never would and many more beings would be in danger...if that makes sense.
@Jade. True, he was selfish, but does that define a hero? We tend to think of heroes as people who help others, but in terms of the hero's journey is that what they are? I don't think so. He went on a journey and learned from it and emerged changed. That is what a hero is in this context.
ReplyDelete@Jade
ReplyDeleteLooking at the hero's journey on Moritz page, i would agree he shouldn't be the hero because he doesn't complete it.
The Ultimate Boon
The ultimate boon is the achievement of the goal of the quest. It is what the person went on the journey to get. All the previous steps serve to prepare and purify the person for this step, since in many myths the boon is something transcendent like the elixir of life itself, or a plant that supplies immortality, or the holy grail.
@Katie and Eric K
ReplyDeleteI agree that Enkidu was probably protecting himself alongside Gilgamesh. It comes back to the question of whether or not Enkidu could be an encouraging fatherly figure or not.
Erica- I think that part of it was that Enkidu wanted to protect Gilgamesh, but I think he also wanted Gilgamesh to end Humbaba's life because they traveled so far to reach him, that it may have been a waste of travel if Humbaba did not die in the end.
ReplyDeleteGilgamesh goes through trial after trial after trial, like we still do today. What gives Gilgamesh (or us) drive to continue even though there could be another trial right around the corner?
ReplyDeleteRachel, I think that it was out of protective instinct that Enkidu told Gilgamesh to kill Humbaba. Before embarking on the journey, Enkidu had no interest in even going and getting near the monster, but once he was there, he saw no choice but to kill Humbaba or be killed. I think today, that is an accepted reason to cause harm to others if we fear our own safety.
ReplyDelete@Rachel
ReplyDeleteI think that Gilgamesh killed Humbaba because he had such a big ego. I dont really think it was a protective instinct. Also that he had Enkidu with him it made him even more excited about killing Humbaba because he had more back up. I don't think that would happen in a modern day situtation though because life today is so much more different then in this story. There would be a different effect.
Do you think that Enkidu only went with Gilgamesh on the journey because he wanted to protect him and was scared that he might go alone?
ReplyDeleteBaileyc
ReplyDelete@julian. I think that he is a hero to the people because he was being selfish and taking all the acknowledgment of killing the monster humaba. He didn’t do this for the people he just did this to gain popularity amongst his people.
Rachel S and Erica
ReplyDeleteBut wasn't Enkidu supposed to be "given" to Gilgamesh as his equal? Was he killed because he had overstepped his boundaries by being a fatherly figure?
@Joe. Animals lack written history. Giving the benefit of the doubt, they have an oral history. But we as humans know that not to be reliable or lasting. Thus, Gilgamesh gained a (fairly) permanent place in history by joining with humanity.
ReplyDelete@Jill
ReplyDeleteI think we find that drive from wanting to find the best in life. You can't go anywhere in life if you shut down because you're scared of what awaits you. So I think it comes down to wanting to live life to the fullest and keep a positive perspective. Also, there could be good things around the corner instead of a bad trial but you won't ever know that until you keep going and find out what awaits you.
@Julia I think so, because they are friends, and they shouldn't let the other go on a dangerous journey alone
ReplyDeletebaileyc
ReplyDelete@julia. i dont think he had any other option than to go with him he was presured by the community to go in order to protect them both along their journey.
@Brain
ReplyDeleteWas Enkidu's purpose in the novel to serve as a boundary to Gilgamesh? Gilgamesh was fearless until Enkidu died, and then he feared death. Was Enkidu's purpose to cause Gilgamesh to become more human and create fear?
@Rachel.
ReplyDeleteJUst kidding. I thought you asked about Gilgamesh.
I think that Enkidu went along with killing Humbaba because, yes, it was a protective instinct since he lived in the forest.I still dont think he would have done it today though because now and then is so much different.
baileyc
ReplyDeleteAs relating to the bible, do you think that god gave these people visons about what was to come. Much like the dreams the people have throught this story?
Jillian, what about not written but if animals pass it down by generations by word of mouth?
ReplyDelete@ Julia
ReplyDeleteYes, I think Enkidu's motives for going on this journey were quite different from Gilgamesh's. Gilgamesh's sole purpose was to obtain glory and potentially eternal life, both things that only benefited him. Enkidu went on the journey knowing how illogical and dangerous it was but I think it's safe to say he decided to go in order to watch over Gilgamesh. Enkidu was made as a sort of "twin" to Gilgamesh but clearly has better values. What an interesting literary technique!
In what other texts do we see characters who are very similar but one seems to have the "better" morals or characteristics?
@Thomas: Just because he failed to become immortal, it doesn't mean he didn't complete his journey. He was not still searching for an answer when the story ended. He found the way to become immortal, and he failed. By doing so, he concluded his journey as there was nowhere left to go in terms of becoming immortal.
ReplyDeleteI think that Enikidu's death was definitely an eye opener for Gilgamesh and I believe that his death did make Gilgamesh more human, although I do not believe that Enkidu thought of that as his purpose in life.
ReplyDeleteErica
ReplyDeleteI think he definitely was a boundary. But overall I think that Enkidu served as a concience (sorry I can't spell) for Gilgamesh. He was always the one deciding between right and wrong, e.g. the sleeping with the wives before marriage. Enkidu thinks thats wrong which causes there first little tiff. :-)
@Katie
ReplyDeleteI think that's a good point but I still think it remains unclear why Enkidu was the first to die. However, could Enkidu just have been fulfilling the role as good friend? Isn't it common for friends to step up and protect each other? What makes a good friend?
baileyc
ReplyDelete@joe. do all animals speak the same languange?
@Joe. Oral history IS word of mouth. And through games of telephone and numerous discussions in history we found that it is not reliable and not lasting. And that's assuming animals tell stories, which science would suggest as doubtful. Good job playing Devil's Advocate, but I think this has run its course.
ReplyDeleteJoe
ReplyDeleteEven if animals did pass down stories... in their own special language I guess.... how would we know about it and how could we ever relate to their stories? If that makes sense.
@ Katie
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Enkidu was killed for being a fatherly figure. He was being a good friend; helping, encouraging and warning Gilgamesh of the things that they were doing.
Enkidu was created as his equal. Maybe Gilgamesh just didn't know how to hold his half of the bargain. Making it seem like Enkidu was over-stepping his role.
Katie-
ReplyDeleteIsn't that slightly hypocritical of Enkidu to think considering he demonstrated that he can give into temptation too?
@Bailey
ReplyDeleteI think that God surprises people in a sense and that totally changes the way people think they're going. But in the story it seemed like the gods gave them the dreams to let them know that something might happen if you go in that direction like what Gilgamesh and Enkidu dreamed about.
Erica, I think that Enkidu was in the story as a lesson to Gilgamesh. He was an example of a good person in contrast to Gilgamesh and Gilgamesh had to watch Enkidu be the good person and die. He was a lesson to show Gilgamesh that even the best people have to die at some point, and that he would never have immortality.
ReplyDelete@ Jillian
ReplyDeleteIn reference to your comment earlier where you said that there is no correlation between experiences in people's lives and what happens to them, would you also say Enkidu entering Gilgamesh's life is just a coincidence?
@Bailey and Joe...I think animals have some sort of unspoken bond.
ReplyDelete@Paige...I don't think anything is coincidence. I believe everything happens for a reason. Especially in this story.
ReplyDeleteJoe-
ReplyDeleteI kind of get what you're saying about the animals. They probably don't have stories exactly, but in animals, the parents are expected to care for their young and teach them necessary life skills before they "leave the nest". That's why animals know where to migrate to, know where to hunt, etc. Isn't that kind of a form of passing down information?
Erika
ReplyDeleteYes it was hypocritical of him, but people tend to notice others' flaws more than themselves.
Katie-
ReplyDeleteBut aren't we all our own harshest critics? Does that hold true to Enkidu and not Gilgamesh or vice-versa?
Paige, I think that Enkidu is not a coincidence at all. He is purposefully thrust into Gilgamesh's life to teach him a lesson.
ReplyDeleteThis whole animal topic is irrelevant...
ReplyDeleteJulia and Bailey, animals obviously communicate. My dog can understand me when i tell him to sit...
ReplyDelete@Paige. In terms of the story, I would say not. It's clear throughout the story that Gods intentionally cause certain things to happen. We read about them creating Enkidu as a direct response to Gilgamesh's arrogance. My previous comments were in respect to real life, which I feel safe assuming this story isn't.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@kylees I think that the enkidu is a sacrifice, that showed gilgamesh what could have been him. Because the gods decided enkidu should die because they killed humbaba together. So it could have been gilgamesh who would have to die, but enkidu took it for him.
ReplyDelete@Jillian
ReplyDeleteAre you asking if God or gods creating circumstances in our life happens today?
Erica
ReplyDeleteTrue, yet we all have our own set of values, and the differences in Enkidu and Gilgamesh caused Enkidu to act like a fatherly figure. He believed that Gilgamesh was wrong so he acted on it by persuading him in a different direction. Theres a difference between being critical of ourselves and trying to fix others' flaws. This probably doesn't make any sense to anyone but me-sorry.
Who is more of a memorable character, Enkidu or Gilgamesh?
ReplyDeletebaileyc
ReplyDelete@allison. How do they accuratly predict the biblical stories years ahead of the time the bible was written. Were they talking about the same evnts?
Katie-
ReplyDeleteAre you getting fatherly and brotherly confused?
@Erika
ReplyDeleteI don't think it was hypocritical of Enkidu. I think he meant it out of goodness and wanting the best for Gilgamesh; looking out for him. Not in a way like "I'm better than you. I wouldn't do that."
Julia, good question. Although Gilgamesh will always be remembered Enkidu will have a more positive memory.
ReplyDelete@Rachel. No, I'm not speculating. I'm stating: Things happen. There is cause and effect, but I do not buy into a supreme being deciding EVERYTHING that happens to us. I do not wish to offend anyone, but such specific interference seems unlikely to me.
ReplyDeleteJulia
ReplyDeleteI think that Enkidu and Gilgamesh are memorable to different people. Their stories can leave more of an impact depending on the situation you are experiencing.
@Julia
ReplyDeleteI think that Enkidu is the most memorable because he was just this random hairy guy who became this famous dude who defeated humbaba and the bull of the heavens and he died leaving a legacy.
I think that Gilgamesh is a more memorable character because in the end it is his ultimate journey for immortality, Enkidu's death just caused that journey for Gilgamesh to begin.
ReplyDeleteWho was more brave? Enkidu or Gilgamesh?
ReplyDeleteErica
ReplyDeleteNo I'm not, I think that Enkidu takes on different roles in different parts of the book.
baileyc
ReplyDelete@julia. I think Gilgamesh is more memorable becuase the whole story is based off him, and the poeple who wrote it obviouly admired him over Enkidu since they depict him in such a heroic sense.
Brain-
ReplyDeleteWas acknowledging death ultimately the downfall of his immortality? Despite having had really begun the journey to achieve immortality.
Katie-
ReplyDeleteHow so?
@Jillian
ReplyDeleteI understand where you're coming from but do you think we have control over every aspect of our life? Is their a higher power determining what is allowed to happen versus what is not allowed to happen or, do we determine all of that on our own?
@Bailey, why do you think that the people who wrote this story admired Gilgamesh over Enkidu? How does Gilgamesh have such a heroic sense?
ReplyDeleteJulia, I think that it depends on what characteristics you are considering, but personally I think that Gilgamesh is more memorable. He had more flaws, he was kind of a ridiculous picture of a leader. People tend to remember the outrageous things about people, like sleeping with every woman before she gets married. It's not necessarily the most respectable person that gets remembered, but the least sometimes.
ReplyDelete@Julia. As someone who's read the story, Enkidu is more memorable to me because of his behaviors throughout the book. In terms of history, Gilgamesh is more memorable by far. Before I knew anything of this story, I knew the name 'Gilgamesh' and I assume there are others in the world who know the name and will never learn of Enkidu.
ReplyDelete@ Jillian
ReplyDeleteThis is just my opinion. But, in what I believe; God doesn't CONTROL everything. He has access to everything, but ultimately, we choose. He gives us free will.
What aspects of the Epic of Gilgamesh allowed it to be passed down for so long? Is there some sort of theme or lesson the people of Mesopotamia wanted to be passed down for generations?
ReplyDeleteWell he was fatherly when he pointed Gilgamesh in the right direction (or what he thought was the right direction) and he was brotherly when he was Gilgameshes friend, and he helped decipher his dreams and give him hope. That help?
ReplyDeleteErica- I think that if Gilgamesh did not acknowledge Enkidu's death then he would not have wanted immortality as bad. Seeing death just caused Gilgamesh to fear death making Gilgamesh want to achieve immortality.
ReplyDeleteBailey and Julia,
ReplyDeleteDid the people who came up with this story really admire Gilgamesh more?
@ Bailey
ReplyDeleteThe events did happen. They told the story by writing what happened down. I don't think they really predicted the events.
Katie-
ReplyDeleteDon't brothers point you in the right direction too? Was he really a male figure in Gilgamesh's life or was he more of a conscience and driving force?
@Jill
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. I think we are given free choice but ultimately God is determining what we have free choice or free will over.
Jill
ReplyDeleteI agree. God doesn't have a set plan for us, we have our own choices in life, but we can look to him for guidance.
paigel, the many lessons throughout the book still can apply today. Ultimately, I believe it was Gilgamesh wanting to become immortal that kept this story alive. Many of the people wanted to become immortal so they did not have to go to Irkalla or any underworld.
ReplyDeleteBrain-
ReplyDeleteWhy was it Enkidu's death that mattered and not Humbaba's?
baileyc
ReplyDelete@julia. I think they it was simply because he was their king and they didn’t want to disrespect the king, who they also viewed as godly, and no one who is religious would purposely disrespect their god.
Erica
ReplyDeleteI said he was a conscience before and you disagreed...?
@Kylees i don't think people came up with the story really admires gilgamesh more, it's probably more of the plot, how you can't escape death, but u can leave fame, perhaps this inspires people who read the story to try harder and make something of themselves
ReplyDelete@Rachel: Sorry, that's a bit of a personal question. I simply wanted to indicate the difference between the story where gods and goddesses treat their subjects as a dollhouse, throwing in new creations like Enkidu willy-nilly and real life, where gods are invisible and everyone comes from a set of two parents.
ReplyDeleteErica- I think that because Enkidu was almost like a brother to Gilgamesh, the impact of his death was greater then one of his enemies like Humbaba who Gilgamesh wanted to die in the first place. I think Gilgamesh had second thoughts on killing Humbaba because he knew death was such a big factor.
ReplyDeleteKatie-
ReplyDeleteNo, I didn't. I added that he might also be a set of boundaries? Is that kind of what a conscience is?
Except...did Enkidu really enforce those boundaries? He argued with Gilgamesh over Humbaba but eventually gave into what he wanted.
Erica,
ReplyDeleteI think that is a really good question. We don't really know what was so bad about Humbaba in the first place. He was just a monster that needed to be killed in Gilgamesh's eyes. Why don't we question his death and why he had to die? What if his claims to be a good monster and protect the forest were true?
Kylee, with jade i believe one of the big morals is to not worry about death and try to do as much as possible while still existing on earth
ReplyDeletebaileyc
ReplyDelete@allison. This text was written a long time before the bible and that's what sparked my question. Were these events just kept alive by people pasing them on for generations or was it really these events that the bible is based off of, and they just viewed it in a different way between the two texts?
@Jillian
ReplyDeleteI was just in general referring to if God, or the gods in the book are controlling everything in everyone's lives or if there is free will choice involved?
Brain-
ReplyDeleteDid Gilgamesh's want for immortality stem from a fear of death, which he admitted once Enkidu died? OR Was it because he loved Enkidu and, because he was arrogant, he didn't want others to have to experience his death because he believed he was well-loved?
I agree with what Ashley just said. One of the main themes of this book was definitely human struggle with death. Its one of the aspects of the book that many of us can relate to.
ReplyDeleteKylee-
ReplyDeleteGood question! That could have very well been the case. Why then did all of the elders look down upon him?
Could he have made mistakes before? But isn't that a human quality, so why did they look down upon Humbaba and none of the other gods who had human qualities?
Erica- I believe that it is a little of both because he did have a selfishness because he wanted to live for ever while he did not care about others mortality, but he was also very scared of dying and that was another reason that he did want to be immortal.
ReplyDelete@Rachel: In the book, I'd say the gods can manipulate the world any way they want, while at the same time they let their subjects go where they choose. Like playing with living toys.
ReplyDelete@Bailey
ReplyDeleteI don't know I can't really answer that. I think that these events were kept alive in some aspect but i dont think that the bible is based off of these events. I think the bible is a completely different story.
Like a lot of them said in the blog I also think that bad things happen to everyone. I think bad things need to happen in order to appreciate a good thing. I don’t think it is right to judge if a person is good or bad by what events happen to them. Some actions that people choose to do could lead to bad things happening but for the most part bad things happen to everyone.
ReplyDeleteSome people said Gilgamesh only went on the journey to kill Humbaba for fame. I don’t think it was necessarily fame. I think he wanted to be remembered and feel important. His whole goal was to be immortal and remembered for what he did. When Enkidu died, I think it opened Gilgamesh’s eyes that in fact he was a human and was going to die eventually. I believe also that Enkidu was meant to protect Gilgamesh and to put things into reality for Gilgamesh. I don’t think Gilgamesh would have really thought it through that he was going to die if it weren’t for Enkidu.
In response to the God questions I have to believe that there is a higher power than us to control and keeps things intact. Whether there are multiple gods some people think or just one God, but definitely something higher than us. Someone asked if Enkidu or Gilgamesh will be remembered more positively than the other and I think Enkidu would most likely be because he was interpreted as a friend to Gilgamesh and a protection to him. He taught Gilgamesh life lessons.