I think that dreams can be interpreted. In some beliefs, maybe dreams are a "sign" from a god, given to a person-trying to tell them certain things. However, the question is how can dreams be interpreted in this text? Was Enkidu making up these interpretations to make Gilgamesh feel more confident, or did he really have the power in interpreting these dreams?
In response to Madison: I think that dreams can show a deeper part of ourselves. It can show us things we are thinking about that we may not know we are thinking about. In The Epic of Gilgamesh I think that it shows a connection. It shows a connection between fate and these characters. Gilgamesh was fated to meet Enkidu. The matter in which he fougt Humbaba was fated. Enkidu's death was fate set out by the gods.
What is fate? Is it a real thing? can we really be "fated" for something? Logan: Do you mean that then we have no choice in what further happens because it is fate?
I think dreams are from what you think about before you go to sleep. If Gilgamesh had killing Humbabba on his mind then he would have some type of dream about it.
@Hope: I think that anyone really has the power to interpret dreams - how you view things and how you interpret things is a completely personal thing. Enkidu may have been making his interpretations up, but even if he wasn't, he doesn't have to be an expert to have an opinion.
Jacob - I think that Gilgamesh represents this value of strength. The city-states of Mesopotamia were constantly in conflict with one another. They valued the ability to conquest. I think he represents the need to take some risks and go for what you want in life despite what others may tell him.
Significance of dreams: Dreams do have meaning behind them, however that meaning can be very jumbled and hard to determine. Dreams must happen for a reason or else they wouldn't have to do with things that are tangible in real life. The impossible part of dreams is that we do not have the ability to fully study or even fully remember dreams. Without full study of dreams, we cannot come to a final conclusion on what an individual dream means. This leaves dreams up to a lot of interpretation. This is why I think that dreams became important to Babylonians. They had absolutely nothing to explain the images that they swear they could see when they were asleep, so they blamed it on the gods. The gods were sending messages to them through their sleep, so the message must be important; this led to the people desperately wanting to interpret dreams. Dreams can give hope or meaning to a situation, or can explain why bad things have happened by foreshadowing a great personal gain.
To Hope: Yea I agree with Michelle, I think that it relates to us as high schoolers where we might not exactly agree with our friends, but we want to encourage them to be more confident in their actions.
I agree with Michelle because he did have a opinion of the dreams, however, he did know what he was talking about because he knew the forest and knew how Humbaba was.
There are curious similarities between the biblical story of Noah’s Arch, and The Epic of Gilgamesh. But, in the bible, God’s punishment was provoked by the evil of humankind. In The Epic of Gilgamesh, the Gods never give a reason for their punishment. What other differences, besides Monotheism vs. Polytheism result in this difference in beliefs?
What is Enkidu's role? There is an important relationship between Gilgamesh and Enkidu. Enkidu helped transform Gilgamesh's life. The moment Enkidu dies, Gilgamesh realizes his humanity and decides to go on a search for immorality. The relationship between these characters can be related to siblings. They have a bond of companionship with one another and are very close, as are siblings.
I believe that dreams are who you really are, and what you desire/want/feel in life. Therefore, Gilgamesh wanted to battle Humbaba so he dreamed of this event happening. Dreams sometimes foreshadow what is happening in life or what will happen, but they also sometimes might never come true. If you dream about things you are feeling and who you really are, you might not show that side of you to everyone- your dreams won't come true in relation to that.
Whether or not fate is real really depends on what a person believes. For example, early Puritan Americans believed in predestination, meaning that every persons destiny or "fate" was determined from the beginning of the world. They could live their lives in any manner, but it wouldn't really matter in the end, because they believed they were going to heaven or hell and had no influence over that fact. I personally believe that our decisions determine our "fate" -- but again, it all goes back to what people as individuals believe in when it comes to God or anything else.
Carina - I think that fate isn't neccesarily what has to happen. In Gilgamesh I think it is what devine intervention of some kind has decided would happen or is likely to happen to Gilgamesh and Enkidu. I think the dreams that depict this fate show a greater connection between Gilgamesh/Enkidu and these divinities.
Is it just me, or do people sometimes dream about random things, such as giant lollipops taking over the world? (I actually haven't dreamed about that, don't worry.) What about these random dreams? If all of our dreams are significant, why do we have such seemingly pointless dreams?
@Carina: fate to me is taking away the meaning of life. Fate says that there are things in your life that will happen no matter what like you are meant to meet someone or you are meant to have a certain job. If life's plan is already laid out for you, doesn't that take away your choice, the one thing that makes you truly free?
I feel like there was an established role in who had superiority because Gilgamesh was king so that automaticly made him more important and its kind of like the hero and the side kick.
Logan&Stephanie- I totally agree with you guys, bravery and strength are two outstanding traits that people look for when they need a hero. What particular strengths and weaknesses does Gilgamesh possess?
I think there is always some significance in dreams, even it is buried down deep in it, I think that we might know the meaning of it sometime in the future or there might be a lesson behind it even though it might be hard to interpret.
Hope: That is an interesting point. I think you are right in the thought that they have a sibling relationship. When they first met, they didn't exactly want to be friends. But-like most siblings/boys do- they had their fight and the conflict was mostly over and they decided that being friends was better than being enemies. Enkidu and Gilgamesh have important influences on each other's lives. As Hope mentioned: "The moment Enkidu dies, Gilgamesh realizes his humanity and decides to go on a search for morality." and Gilgamesh took Enkidu on this adventure to defeat one of the greatest monsters.
Michelle: I think that that may be based on opinion as well. Maybe these "weird" or "pointless" dreams are actually very significant in someones mind. On the other side, someone may believe that you just ate something strange that night and that is why you are having these dreams. However, I think that it is very possible for a giant lollipop-something that seems so pointless, to have great significance.
Gilgamesh is strong willed at some points and then he comes off really insecure; for example when he had the dreams and when he wasn't sure that they should kill Humbaba.
@Annie - I think that neither figure was meant to display superiority. Gilgamesh and Enkidu, to me, are meant to display two sides of the same whole. Gilgamesh is emotion and impulse while Enkidu is thought and reason. Neither is superior because both the emotion and the reason are constantly coexisting in us all. They are meant to balance each other not to dominate each other.
Annie- Yes there was, but I think that this healthy competition resulted in both of them becoming stronger, improving both their strengths and weaknesses.
Nate: That is something I think about alot and I wonder what is real. Religion tells you that there is always a plan, but you are right; doesn't that take away your free will? So can we change the path of our "fate"? How do we do that if our way is decided already for us? Did Enkidu and Gilgamesh have another choice? Would any decision have ended up with roughly the same outcome eventually?
@Logan and Annie: I agree with you Logan. Enkidu was created as a balance for Gilgamesh. He was meant to teach Gilgamesh and help him grow up. He ended up teaching him a very good lesson about being human.
@Jacob: I agree with what Logan said, that Gilgamesh act on impulse and emotion. This is a weakness because what he was feeling was often an extreme, like being overzealous in wanting to kill Humbaba. As soon as he was faced with this opportunity, he wanted to turn back because he didn't think that he could do it. He was never in between, he was always at an extreme. In that sense, this is an appeal to pathos: the emotions that Gilgamesh feels are felt by the reader, and Enkidu was the appeal to logos in the sense that he tried to rationalize and make sense of what Gilgamesh was feeling.
@Carina: I think that life really breaks down to choices. The outcome or consequences of those choices is how we change our fate. If we decide that a completely different path is what is better for us, then we have the ability and the free will to do so. There are a lot of different ways to go into a big situation such as killing Humbaba. I think that there are many different ways to get to the same general conclusion.
CARINA> I feel like they repeated it to demonstrate that it was really affecting the characters in the story. For example when the people Gilgamesh met after Enkidu's death were asking him over and over why he was so sad it showed the reader that this was a big obsticle that he was facing.
@Carina - I think that Gilgamesh and Enkidu had a choice. Gilgamesh chose to be tyrant. Gilgamesh chose to fight Humbaba. Gilgamesh chose to scorn Ishtar's advances and chose to kill the bull. What was fated and unescabable was the events that followed. Gilgamesh could not control the creation of Enkidu, the progression of events with Humbaba, or the death of Enkidu.
Logan: Even though those two sets of characteristics balance each other and complete the other- wouldn't you say that they almost made them more competitive towards one another? Because they had different characteristics, they feel or think different things even though in a whole person they would balance out well- they are not together in one person. They might not dominate each other, but the two different sides of Enkidu/Gilgamesh dominate each to his own respectively. Therefore, them being dominated by these characteristics, in their own, makes them disagree and have the desire to be superior to the other.
Stephanie- how can you compare Gilgamesh’s strengths and weaknesses to Enkidu’s strengths and weaknesses? Do they complete each other when you combine each other’s strengths?
Carina: I think you are right -- religions do often say that there is already a plan. But is it possible that we were always meant to choose, but someone or something greater than us already knew what we were going to choose? If this was true, what would this mean in the case of Gilgamesh and Enkidu? What would it mean for us?
Logan: So do you think that no matter the actions, situations, thoughts, feelings, etc.- that the outcome will develop to be the same no matter the differing "in-betweens" of their choices? [The outcome meaning other than their death- because obviously everyone dies.]
The impact Enkidu had on Gilgamesh can be seen on page 80.. Gilgamesh says, "What became of my friend was too much to bear, so on a far road I wander the wild; what became of my friend Enkidu was too much to bear so on a far path I wander the wild." How does this show the relationship between Enkidu and Gilgamesh? In a negative or positive way? Notice the quote on page 81 "shall I not be like him, and also lie down, never to rise again, through all eternity?"
Jacob and Stephanie- I think that both of them were there to help each other up and by working together combine their strengths to create something even better. I think that with Gilgamesh's strengths and weaknesses and Enkidu's, they even each other out.
@Carina and Logan: I think the fact that they were opposite is what made them so great; two halves of one whole. Being competitive is a good thing because it causes people to push themselves and try to be better than the best. If every person is better than the last, doesn't that mean we will continue to advance forever?
Going off of what Madison said: I think it is so intriguing that so many religions, even in completely different areas of the world, have very similar histories and beliefs. We don't need to get into a discussion about religion, but how could it be possible for religions to be so similar?
In response to the inner circle and the parallel between Epic of Gilgamesh: I think that the reason the flood coninues to show itself throughout religious stories is because of the symbolism of water. Water is seen throughout varying societies and times, and the giant flood is a representation of societal cleansing. It is meant to cleanse the evil from Humanity. The snake is a symbol of maturation. As the snake progresses in life it sheds its skin and wears a new one. It sheds its image of innocence and I think that is why the snake is used as a loss of innocence. It is humanity sheding its innocence.
@Michelle: how does someone knowing our choice relate to fate? All that means is that there is someone watching, not deciding. If our "final place" is already decided then that still takes away our ability to live our own life
Well if we could compare to a sterotyped jock and a sterotyped nerd....Gilgamesh would be the jock and Enkidu would be the nerd. The jocks strength would be that he is physically capable and intelligent in that sense and his weakness would be that he doesn't have a lot of creditable thoughts. The nerd would be the opposite. Although, in the story's specific case I believe that they needed each other and almost complete each other like yin and yang. Maybe that is why Gilgamesh is so lost without him.
Nate- yes, I think that that is why we are so succesful in today's world because, yes, there is competition but it pushes people. Not for hatred for each other, but for the better of the person and new studies and technology of the world.
@Carina- I don't think the result will be the same no matter the action. I think that once the action is taken the reaction cannot be escaped. I think it is in a way saying that we must accept the consequences of our actions.
Stephanie: Someone mentioned once that maybe they were just being lazy and didn't want to find symbols to write a different part of the story so they just repeated it every time. I'm not so sure that every part involving repetition is very important to the story, or for the reader to think was important.
"Let Enkidu go before you, he knows the journey to the Forest of Cedar. He is tested in battle and [tried] in combat, through the mountain passes [he often has journeyed]" -What do you think the significance is, if any, that Enkidu is the one who died in the forest while Gilgamesh lived? Even though people were so confident that Enkidu was more trained in battle, he ended up dying of sickness and couldn't battle that, but could defeat the most powerful monster? What do they want us to see with this symbolism (if you think it is symbolism)?
Annie&Stephanie-I agree with both of you guys, they made a great team. Do you think that Enkidu and Gilgamesh would be respected as much as they are in the story in modern times? Explain.
@Nate: I think that we can curtail or actions and minimize the reaction. I think that once we have followed through on our actions we can ask for forgiveness but I think that the reaction is not something we can control. It is controlled by others.
@Nate: If someone already knows, I think that ties directly to fate. It's a really complex and interesting thing to think about - how are we still given freedom to choose for ourselves if fate IS real? I personally believe that we are given free agency (the freedom to choose), yet God still already knows all things before they happen. Assuming that there is an all-powerful, almighty God, if he wanted something to happen, would he not be able to make it happen? If he wanted all people to believe in him, could he not make them believe in him? If he did that, that would remove our agency entirely. But we ARE given the ability to choose. We make choices every day of our lives. It comes down to more of what we believe, not fact.
Jake: "They couldn't be considered heroes without each other."
They have both made advances in each other's heroic journey, and without Enkidu Gilgamesh would not have gone into the forest. Without Gilgamesh, Enkidu would not have even thought about battling such a monster. But because of Gilgamesh, he became a hero for defeating Humbaba.
It is called the epic of Gilgamesh, so doesn't that mean he is the hero?
Lapis Lazuli is a gem with colorful and diverse mythology -once as valuable as gold. "For you I will give a chariot made of lapis-lazuli Yes, too, and of gold! Its horns - they shall be of brilliant brass. Storm demons I will hitch to it for your mules! There shalll be a great fragrance of cedar On the occasions when you enter our house Its very threshold, the very dais itself - As your feet touch them Your feet shall be kissed by them!" I do not know the exact meaning behind Lapis Lazuli but from this, we can realize that it is very valuable and has great meaning in this text because it has been repeated more than just once.
Jacob- I think they would be respected by some people but not everyone. It is kind of like politics and the democrats and rebupublicans. Some people would have different views with the two of them.
I honestly wouldn't respect them today because they killed Humbaba when he didn't do anything to provoke them. If they had a quest that would benefit others and not hurt others they would be respected but since respect in their culture is based on success in any form its different.
@Class - For me a I see a comparison between the Epic of Gilgamesh and Of Mice and Men. Both stories represent the competing sides of humanity. In Gilgamesh Enkidu is reason and Gilgamesh is emotion. In Of Mice and Men George is the reason and Lennie is the emotional side. I think it is interesting because in Gilgamesh Enkidu dies (the logic and reason) where as in Of Mice and Men Lennie dies (the emotion and instinct). Do you think this says anything about our change in point of view from society then until society now? Or is it from East to West? Do you see other connections between Gilgamesh and modern stories?
@Jacob: I believe that Gilgamesh and Enkidu would be equally respected today. Think about people that we look up to - Obama is the easiest example. He leads our country, whether we like him or not. His successes are our successes, and his failures are our failures. Think about when Bin Laden was killed: despite all of the bad things that are going on, that is one thing that we as Americans could come together over. That eerily ties to when Gilgamesh killed Humbaba. We respect those that are heroes in society.
Stephanie- Do you think that their journey benefited anyone? If their culture is based purely on success, then what does our culture value in a hero, in your opinion?
Ancient Sumerian values- To show strength and heroism at all times even though a hero isnt needed, they will still go out to do something that might hurt innocent people.
Modern Values- Helping someone out of the kindness of their heart. A hero today, to me, is considered one that cares more about others than recieving the glory for themselves.
@Jacob: The values that were valued a long time ago were values that showed how powerful man was. Now that man has evolved and we have advanced in civilization, our values have changed from things that prove man power, to things that improve power. Like "loveroflifeisgood" said, now people care more about respect and things like that rather than size and strength. Humans don't need to put themselves on the map anymore, we are very established.
Stephanie: Is respect in their culture based on any form of success? How do you know that/why do you say that?
Nate/Michelle: "God" is the only one who knows in the end. We do not know the future and cannot know what will happen based on just a guess. We don't know where we will end up.
Did the people of Mesopatamian times believe that there was a fate for them decided by the gods and there was nothing they could do about it? Because they relied quite heavily on what the gods thought, felt, etc.
Annie: I think that everyone's view of a hero is different. Some may be Superman, others may be their fathers... But everyone's is different in some way. I classify a hero as someone who has saved another. So I do not think that Enkidu and Gilgamesh are heroes because they have not saved anyone. Just hurt someone innocent like Stephanie said.
Do you think that Gilgamesh's want to be recognized and that somewhat cocky behavior made him want to defeat Humbaba more so than any other motive?
Michelle-Without getting into a political argument, I can say I agree with your idea (not your example). But Enkidu and Gilgamesh killed Humbaba for no reason; do you really think our modern culture would respect their actions? Do we value more than just power and strength?
I don't think it benefited anyone really. I think our culture considers a hero to be someone that cures disease and makes a itellegent discovery. Maybe a person that makes a break through in science....
Logan: That is such a good point, I agree completely with you. They are on a journey together just like in Of Mice and Men, and they help each other out in different ways. I see Enkidu as George and Gilgamesh as Lennie. Gilgamesh needs more help in what he thinks, feels, does and Enkidu is that help for him to figure out what he needs and how to do it. They are important to each other, but still fued and have their differences.
I don't believe you can define a hero, and I don't believe that to be a hero you must cure a disease or make a discovery. A hero is different for each individual, for example, a Grandma can be a hero to someone simply because she listened, or made a sacrifice for her family. A hero could be an author or a coworker. Our society is unable to consider a hero a specific profile because it is so individually selective.
I believe dreams relay our subconscious, which shows our true selves by not being interfered with by our conscious state. I think they also play a role in fate, which supports the dreams that Gilgamesh had about Enkidu. I think the different pathways you choose for yourself shape fate, but within that path I believe that fate can take control. Dreams show your fate because you unconsciously know what your true desires are and eventually you fallow what it is that you were destined to do. I believe the overall moral for this book is that immortality is physically impossible and is not defined as you living on forever but is defined by your fame and contributions that live on forever such as the wall Gilgamesh built and his heroic journey. In our world today this is apparent especially with actors and singers. Leaving a legend was very important to the Mesopotamians because it was the only feasible thing that could help them cope with their inevitable future of misery. I think this shows that their civilization focused more on ones accomplishments and physical strength more then being a good person. This shows why Gilgamesh didn’t have morals in the beginning because no matter how he acts and treats others in his life he is still sentenced to the same fate. In contrast Christianity focuses on ones actions on earth will decide their fate between heaven and hell. In Mesopotamian religion sex and prostitutes were seen to be an appropriate normal thing because again their fate is already set in stone, which in Christianity it is seen impure. When Enkidu dies Gilgamesh at first is humbled by his death because he feels empathy for his friend at first but later the reality of his death becomes apparent which also brings fear and selfishness to Gilgamesh because he doesn’t want what happened to Enkidu to happen to him which triggers his search for immortality.
In The Epic of Gilgamesh, what characteristics do the ancient Sumerians value, as shown by their hero, Gilgamesh?
ReplyDeleteI think that dreams can be interpreted. In some beliefs, maybe dreams are a "sign" from a god, given to a person-trying to tell them certain things. However, the question is how can dreams be interpreted in this text? Was Enkidu making up these interpretations to make Gilgamesh feel more confident, or did he really have the power in interpreting these dreams?
ReplyDeleteI think that they value bravery in the sense that they would die a heroic death in order to be remembered as a legend.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Madison: I think that dreams can show a deeper part of ourselves. It can show us things we are thinking about that we may not know we are thinking about. In The Epic of Gilgamesh I think that it shows a connection. It shows a connection between fate and these characters. Gilgamesh was fated to meet Enkidu. The matter in which he fougt Humbaba was fated. Enkidu's death was fate set out by the gods.
ReplyDeleteDo you think that everything happens for a reason?
ReplyDeleteWhat is fate? Is it a real thing? can we really be "fated" for something? Logan: Do you mean that then we have no choice in what further happens because it is fate?
ReplyDeleteI think dreams are from what you think about before you go to sleep. If Gilgamesh had killing Humbabba on his mind then he would have some type of dream about it.
ReplyDelete@Hope: I think that anyone really has the power to interpret dreams - how you view things and how you interpret things is a completely personal thing. Enkidu may have been making his interpretations up, but even if he wasn't, he doesn't have to be an expert to have an opinion.
ReplyDeleteJacob - I think that Gilgamesh represents this value of strength. The city-states of Mesopotamia were constantly in conflict with one another. They valued the ability to conquest. I think he represents the need to take some risks and go for what you want in life despite what others may tell him.
ReplyDeleteSignificance of dreams:
ReplyDeleteDreams do have meaning behind them, however that meaning can be very jumbled and hard to determine. Dreams must happen for a reason or else they wouldn't have to do with things that are tangible in real life. The impossible part of dreams is that we do not have the ability to fully study or even fully remember dreams. Without full study of dreams, we cannot come to a final conclusion on what an individual dream means. This leaves dreams up to a lot of interpretation. This is why I think that dreams became important to Babylonians. They had absolutely nothing to explain the images that they swear they could see when they were asleep, so they blamed it on the gods. The gods were sending messages to them through their sleep, so the message must be important; this led to the people desperately wanting to interpret dreams. Dreams can give hope or meaning to a situation, or can explain why bad things have happened by foreshadowing a great personal gain.
To Hope: Yea I agree with Michelle, I think that it relates to us as high schoolers where we might not exactly agree with our friends, but we want to encourage them to be more confident in their actions.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Michelle because he did have a opinion of the dreams, however, he did know what he was talking about because he knew the forest and knew how Humbaba was.
ReplyDeleteThere are curious similarities between the biblical story of Noah’s Arch, and The Epic of Gilgamesh. But, in the bible, God’s punishment was provoked by the evil of humankind. In The Epic of Gilgamesh, the Gods never give a reason for their punishment. What other differences, besides Monotheism vs. Polytheism result in this difference in beliefs?
ReplyDeleteWhat is Enkidu's role? There is an important relationship between Gilgamesh and Enkidu. Enkidu helped transform Gilgamesh's life. The moment Enkidu dies, Gilgamesh realizes his humanity and decides to go on a search for immorality. The relationship between these characters can be related to siblings. They have a bond of companionship with one another and are very close, as are siblings.
ReplyDeleteI believe that dreams are who you really are, and what you desire/want/feel in life. Therefore, Gilgamesh wanted to battle Humbaba so he dreamed of this event happening. Dreams sometimes foreshadow what is happening in life or what will happen, but they also sometimes might never come true. If you dream about things you are feeling and who you really are, you might not show that side of you to everyone- your dreams won't come true in relation to that.
ReplyDeleteWhether or not fate is real really depends on what a person believes. For example, early Puritan Americans believed in predestination, meaning that every persons destiny or "fate" was determined from the beginning of the world. They could live their lives in any manner, but it wouldn't really matter in the end, because they believed they were going to heaven or hell and had no influence over that fact. I personally believe that our decisions determine our "fate" -- but again, it all goes back to what people as individuals believe in when it comes to God or anything else.
ReplyDeleteWas there a little bit of a conflict between Enkidu and Gilgamesh between who had the superiority?
ReplyDeleteCarina - I think that fate isn't neccesarily what has to happen. In Gilgamesh I think it is what devine intervention of some kind has decided would happen or is likely to happen to Gilgamesh and Enkidu. I think the dreams that depict this fate show a greater connection between Gilgamesh/Enkidu and these divinities.
ReplyDeleteIs it just me, or do people sometimes dream about random things, such as giant lollipops taking over the world? (I actually haven't dreamed about that, don't worry.) What about these random dreams? If all of our dreams are significant, why do we have such seemingly pointless dreams?
ReplyDelete@Carina: fate to me is taking away the meaning of life. Fate says that there are things in your life that will happen no matter what like you are meant to meet someone or you are meant to have a certain job. If life's plan is already laid out for you, doesn't that take away your choice, the one thing that makes you truly free?
ReplyDeleteI feel like there was an established role in who had superiority because Gilgamesh was king so that automaticly made him more important and its kind of like the hero and the side kick.
ReplyDeleteLogan&Stephanie- I totally agree with you guys, bravery and strength are two outstanding traits that people look for when they need a hero. What particular strengths and weaknesses does Gilgamesh possess?
ReplyDelete-Jack
ReplyDeleteInnocence-Noun
1.
the quality or state of being innocent; freedom from sin or moral wrong.
2.
freedom from legal or specific wrong; guiltlessness: The prisoner proved his innocence.
3.
simplicity; absence of guile or cunning; naiveté.
4.
lack of knowledge or understanding.
5.
harmlessness; innocuousness.
I think there is always some significance in dreams, even it is buried down deep in it, I think that we might know the meaning of it sometime in the future or there might be a lesson behind it even though it might be hard to interpret.
ReplyDeleteHope: That is an interesting point. I think you are right in the thought that they have a sibling relationship. When they first met, they didn't exactly want to be friends. But-like most siblings/boys do- they had their fight and the conflict was mostly over and they decided that being friends was better than being enemies. Enkidu and Gilgamesh have important influences on each other's lives. As Hope mentioned: "The moment Enkidu dies, Gilgamesh realizes his humanity and decides to go on a search for morality." and Gilgamesh took Enkidu on this adventure to defeat one of the greatest monsters.
ReplyDeleteMichelle: I think that that may be based on opinion as well. Maybe these "weird" or "pointless" dreams are actually very significant in someones mind. On the other side, someone may believe that you just ate something strange that night and that is why you are having these dreams. However, I think that it is very possible for a giant lollipop-something that seems so pointless, to have great significance.
ReplyDeleteGilgamesh is strong willed at some points and then he comes off really insecure; for example when he had the dreams and when he wasn't sure that they should kill Humbaba.
ReplyDelete@Annie - I think that neither figure was meant to display superiority. Gilgamesh and Enkidu, to me, are meant to display two sides of the same whole. Gilgamesh is emotion and impulse while Enkidu is thought and reason. Neither is superior because both the emotion and the reason are constantly coexisting in us all. They are meant to balance each other not to dominate each other.
ReplyDeleteAnnie- Yes there was, but I think that this healthy competition resulted in both of them becoming stronger, improving both their strengths and weaknesses.
ReplyDeleteNate: That is something I think about alot and I wonder what is real. Religion tells you that there is always a plan, but you are right; doesn't that take away your free will? So can we change the path of our "fate"? How do we do that if our way is decided already for us? Did Enkidu and Gilgamesh have another choice? Would any decision have ended up with roughly the same outcome eventually?
ReplyDeleteWas the dream that Enkidu had on page 61 ment to be sort of like a description of hell or the "underworld"?
ReplyDelete@Logan and Annie: I agree with you Logan. Enkidu was created as a balance for Gilgamesh. He was meant to teach Gilgamesh and help him grow up. He ended up teaching him a very good lesson about being human.
ReplyDeleteRachel: "What is the significance of the repetition?"
ReplyDelete@Jacob: I agree with what Logan said, that Gilgamesh act on impulse and emotion. This is a weakness because what he was feeling was often an extreme, like being overzealous in wanting to kill Humbaba. As soon as he was faced with this opportunity, he wanted to turn back because he didn't think that he could do it. He was never in between, he was always at an extreme. In that sense, this is an appeal to pathos: the emotions that Gilgamesh feels are felt by the reader, and Enkidu was the appeal to logos in the sense that he tried to rationalize and make sense of what Gilgamesh was feeling.
ReplyDelete@Carina: I think that life really breaks down to choices. The outcome or consequences of those choices is how we change our fate. If we decide that a completely different path is what is better for us, then we have the ability and the free will to do so. There are a lot of different ways to go into a big situation such as killing Humbaba. I think that there are many different ways to get to the same general conclusion.
ReplyDeleteCARINA> I feel like they repeated it to demonstrate that it was really affecting the characters in the story. For example when the people Gilgamesh met after Enkidu's death were asking him over and over why he was so sad it showed the reader that this was a big obsticle that he was facing.
ReplyDelete@Carina - I think that Gilgamesh and Enkidu had a choice. Gilgamesh chose to be tyrant. Gilgamesh chose to fight Humbaba. Gilgamesh chose to scorn Ishtar's advances and chose to kill the bull. What was fated and unescabable was the events that followed. Gilgamesh could not control the creation of Enkidu, the progression of events with Humbaba, or the death of Enkidu.
ReplyDeleteLogan: Even though those two sets of characteristics balance each other and complete the other- wouldn't you say that they almost made them more competitive towards one another? Because they had different characteristics, they feel or think different things even though in a whole person they would balance out well- they are not together in one person. They might not dominate each other, but the two different sides of Enkidu/Gilgamesh dominate each to his own respectively. Therefore, them being dominated by these characteristics, in their own, makes them disagree and have the desire to be superior to the other.
ReplyDeleteMichelle- I agree with what you were saying because Gilgamesh was only two thirds god so he wasnt even the most powerful known.
ReplyDeleteStephanie- how can you compare Gilgamesh’s strengths and weaknesses to Enkidu’s strengths and weaknesses? Do they complete each other when you combine each other’s strengths?
ReplyDeleteCarina: I think you are right -- religions do often say that there is already a plan. But is it possible that we were always meant to choose, but someone or something greater than us already knew what we were going to choose? If this was true, what would this mean in the case of Gilgamesh and Enkidu? What would it mean for us?
ReplyDeleteLogan: So do you think that no matter the actions, situations, thoughts, feelings, etc.- that the outcome will develop to be the same no matter the differing "in-betweens" of their choices? [The outcome meaning other than their death- because obviously everyone dies.]
ReplyDeleteThe impact Enkidu had on Gilgamesh can be seen on page 80.. Gilgamesh says,
ReplyDelete"What became of my friend was too much to bear,
so on a far road I wander the wild;
what became of my friend Enkidu was too much to bear
so on a far path I wander the wild."
How does this show the relationship between Enkidu and Gilgamesh? In a negative or positive way? Notice the quote on page 81
"shall I not be like him, and also lie down,
never to rise again, through all eternity?"
Jacob and Stephanie- I think that both of them were there to help each other up and by working together combine their strengths to create something even better. I think that with Gilgamesh's strengths and weaknesses and Enkidu's, they even each other out.
ReplyDelete@Carina and Logan: I think the fact that they were opposite is what made them so great; two halves of one whole. Being competitive is a good thing because it causes people to push themselves and try to be better than the best. If every person is better than the last, doesn't that mean we will continue to advance forever?
ReplyDeleteGoing off of what Madison said: I think it is so intriguing that so many religions, even in completely different areas of the world, have very similar histories and beliefs. We don't need to get into a discussion about religion, but how could it be possible for religions to be so similar?
ReplyDeleteIn response to the inner circle and the parallel between Epic of Gilgamesh: I think that the reason the flood coninues to show itself throughout religious stories is because of the symbolism of water. Water is seen throughout varying societies and times, and the giant flood is a representation of societal cleansing. It is meant to cleanse the evil from Humanity. The snake is a symbol of maturation. As the snake progresses in life it sheds its skin and wears a new one. It sheds its image of innocence and I think that is why the snake is used as a loss of innocence. It is humanity sheding its innocence.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteMichelle- Would you agree that the weaknesses of Gilgamesh are supported/improved by the strengths of Enkidu?
ReplyDelete@Michelle: how does someone knowing our choice relate to fate? All that means is that there is someone watching, not deciding. If our "final place" is already decided then that still takes away our ability to live our own life
ReplyDeleteWell if we could compare to a sterotyped jock and a sterotyped nerd....Gilgamesh would be the jock and Enkidu would be the nerd. The jocks strength would be that he is physically capable and intelligent in that sense and his weakness would be that he doesn't have a lot of creditable thoughts. The nerd would be the opposite. Although, in the story's specific case I believe that they needed each other and almost complete each other like yin and yang. Maybe that is why Gilgamesh is so lost without him.
ReplyDeleteNate- yes, I think that that is why we are so succesful in today's world because, yes, there is competition but it pushes people. Not for hatred for each other, but for the better of the person and new studies and technology of the world.
ReplyDelete@Carina- I don't think the result will be the same no matter the action. I think that once the action is taken the reaction cannot be escaped. I think it is in a way saying that we must accept the consequences of our actions.
ReplyDelete@Logan: do we have the ability to change our actions? Or are all things final?
ReplyDeleteThis might be a stupid question but, in the book it kept bringing up and saying the word, " Lapis Lazuli" I dont understand what that means.
ReplyDeleteStephanie: Someone mentioned once that maybe they were just being lazy and didn't want to find symbols to write a different part of the story so they just repeated it every time. I'm not so sure that every part involving repetition is very important to the story, or for the reader to think was important.
ReplyDelete"Let Enkidu go before you, he knows the journey to the Forest of Cedar. He is tested in battle and [tried] in combat, through the mountain passes [he often has journeyed]"
-What do you think the significance is, if any, that Enkidu is the one who died in the forest while Gilgamesh lived? Even though people were so confident that Enkidu was more trained in battle, he ended up dying of sickness and couldn't battle that, but could defeat the most powerful monster? What do they want us to see with this symbolism (if you think it is symbolism)?
Annie&Stephanie-I agree with both of you guys, they made a great team. Do you think that Enkidu and Gilgamesh would be respected as much as they are in the story in modern times? Explain.
ReplyDelete@Annie: Lapis Lazuli: a deep-blue mineral composed mainly of lazurite with smaller quantities of other minerals, used mainly as a gem or as a pigment.
ReplyDelete@Nate: I think that we can curtail or actions and minimize the reaction. I think that once we have followed through on our actions we can ask for forgiveness but I think that the reaction is not something we can control. It is controlled by others.
ReplyDeleteNate- so then why would they use that word so frequently in the text?
ReplyDeleteWhen people grant forgiveness, do we really forgive or does human nature keep us angry?
ReplyDelete@Nate: If someone already knows, I think that ties directly to fate. It's a really complex and interesting thing to think about - how are we still given freedom to choose for ourselves if fate IS real? I personally believe that we are given free agency (the freedom to choose), yet God still already knows all things before they happen. Assuming that there is an all-powerful, almighty God, if he wanted something to happen, would he not be able to make it happen? If he wanted all people to believe in him, could he not make them believe in him? If he did that, that would remove our agency entirely. But we ARE given the ability to choose. We make choices every day of our lives. It comes down to more of what we believe, not fact.
ReplyDeleteJake: "They couldn't be considered heroes without each other."
ReplyDeleteThey have both made advances in each other's heroic journey, and without Enkidu Gilgamesh would not have gone into the forest. Without Gilgamesh, Enkidu would not have even thought about battling such a monster. But because of Gilgamesh, he became a hero for defeating Humbaba.
It is called the epic of Gilgamesh, so doesn't that mean he is the hero?
Lapis Lazuli is a gem with colorful and diverse mythology -once as valuable as gold.
ReplyDelete"For you I will give a chariot made of lapis-lazuli
Yes, too, and of gold!
Its horns - they shall be of brilliant brass.
Storm demons I will hitch to it for your mules!
There shalll be a great fragrance of cedar
On the occasions when you enter our house
Its very threshold, the very dais itself -
As your feet touch them
Your feet shall be kissed by them!"
I do not know the exact meaning behind Lapis Lazuli but from this, we can realize that it is very valuable and has great meaning in this text because it has been repeated more than just once.
Jacob- I think they would be respected by some people but not everyone. It is kind of like politics and the democrats and rebupublicans. Some people would have different views with the two of them.
ReplyDeleteI honestly wouldn't respect them today because they killed Humbaba when he didn't do anything to provoke them. If they had a quest that would benefit others and not hurt others they would be respected but since respect in their culture is based on success in any form its different.
ReplyDelete@Michelle: can we discover our fate or is "God" the only one that knows?
ReplyDeleteAnnie- going on what you said, what are the differences between ancient Sumerian values of a hero and modern values of heroes?
ReplyDelete@Class - For me a I see a comparison between the Epic of Gilgamesh and Of Mice and Men. Both stories represent the competing sides of humanity. In Gilgamesh Enkidu is reason and Gilgamesh is emotion. In Of Mice and Men George is the reason and Lennie is the emotional side. I think it is interesting because in Gilgamesh Enkidu dies (the logic and reason) where as in Of Mice and Men Lennie dies (the emotion and instinct). Do you think this says anything about our change in point of view from society then until society now? Or is it from East to West? Do you see other connections between Gilgamesh and modern stories?
ReplyDelete@Jacob: I believe that Gilgamesh and Enkidu would be equally respected today. Think about people that we look up to - Obama is the easiest example. He leads our country, whether we like him or not. His successes are our successes, and his failures are our failures. Think about when Bin Laden was killed: despite all of the bad things that are going on, that is one thing that we as Americans could come together over. That eerily ties to when Gilgamesh killed Humbaba. We respect those that are heroes in society.
ReplyDeleteStephanie- Do you think that their journey benefited anyone? If their culture is based purely on success, then what does our culture value in a hero, in your opinion?
ReplyDeleteAncient Sumerian values- To show strength and heroism at all times even though a hero isnt needed, they will still go out to do something that might hurt innocent people.
ReplyDeleteModern Values- Helping someone out of the kindness of their heart. A hero today, to me, is considered one that cares more about others than recieving the glory for themselves.
@Jacob: The values that were valued a long time ago were values that showed how powerful man was. Now that man has evolved and we have advanced in civilization, our values have changed from things that prove man power, to things that improve power. Like "loveroflifeisgood" said, now people care more about respect and things like that rather than size and strength. Humans don't need to put themselves on the map anymore, we are very established.
ReplyDeleteStephanie: Is respect in their culture based on any form of success? How do you know that/why do you say that?
ReplyDeleteNate/Michelle: "God" is the only one who knows in the end. We do not know the future and cannot know what will happen based on just a guess. We don't know where we will end up.
Did the people of Mesopatamian times believe that there was a fate for them decided by the gods and there was nothing they could do about it? Because they relied quite heavily on what the gods thought, felt, etc.
Annie: I think that everyone's view of a hero is different. Some may be Superman, others may be their fathers... But everyone's is different in some way. I classify a hero as someone who has saved another. So I do not think that Enkidu and Gilgamesh are heroes because they have not saved anyone. Just hurt someone innocent like Stephanie said.
Do you think that Gilgamesh's want to be recognized and that somewhat cocky behavior made him want to defeat Humbaba more so than any other motive?
Michelle-Without getting into a political argument, I can say I agree with your idea (not your example). But Enkidu and Gilgamesh killed Humbaba for no reason; do you really think our modern culture would respect their actions? Do we value more than just power and strength?
ReplyDeleteI don't think it benefited anyone really. I think our culture considers a hero to be someone that cures disease and makes a itellegent discovery. Maybe a person that makes a break through in science....
ReplyDeleteLogan: That is such a good point, I agree completely with you. They are on a journey together just like in Of Mice and Men, and they help each other out in different ways. I see Enkidu as George and Gilgamesh as Lennie. Gilgamesh needs more help in what he thinks, feels, does and Enkidu is that help for him to figure out what he needs and how to do it. They are important to each other, but still fued and have their differences.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe you can define a hero, and I don't believe that to be a hero you must cure a disease or make a discovery. A hero is different for each individual, for example, a Grandma can be a hero to someone simply because she listened, or made a sacrifice for her family. A hero could be an author or a coworker. Our society is unable to consider a hero a specific profile because it is so individually selective.
ReplyDeleteI believe dreams relay our subconscious, which shows our true selves by not being interfered with by our conscious state. I think they also play a role in fate, which supports the dreams that Gilgamesh had about Enkidu. I think the different pathways you choose for yourself shape fate, but within that path I believe that fate can take control. Dreams show your fate because you unconsciously know what your true desires are and eventually you fallow what it is that you were destined to do. I believe the overall moral for this book is that immortality is physically impossible and is not defined as you living on forever but is defined by your fame and contributions that live on forever such as the wall Gilgamesh built and his heroic journey. In our world today this is apparent especially with actors and singers. Leaving a legend was very important to the Mesopotamians because it was the only feasible thing that could help them cope with their inevitable future of misery. I think this shows that their civilization focused more on ones accomplishments and physical strength more then being a good person. This shows why Gilgamesh didn’t have morals in the beginning because no matter how he acts and treats others in his life he is still sentenced to the same fate. In contrast Christianity focuses on ones actions on earth will decide their fate between heaven and hell. In Mesopotamian religion sex and prostitutes were seen to be an appropriate normal thing because again their fate is already set in stone, which in Christianity it is seen impure.
ReplyDeleteWhen Enkidu dies Gilgamesh at first is humbled by his death because he feels empathy for his friend at first but later the reality of his death becomes apparent which also brings fear and selfishness to Gilgamesh because he doesn’t want what happened to Enkidu to happen to him which triggers his search for immortality.