I think the moral of the Epic of Gilgamesh is that life won't work out as planned if someone had bad intentions. It has to do with creation because it shows that life in general won't go on in the right "way" without the right intentions.
I think it shows that you can still work hard for something and not always have it work out. I think it also may saying that life is more about the journey than the destination. He may not have beaten death but he did a lot when he was alive.
In response to Austin's comment, I would say that Gilgamesh's inability to find immortality mirrors the plight of every human being. Every one wishes they could achieve more or become greater, but every human is faced with a short life that they must make the most of. Did Gilgamesh make a good use of his life?
I agree with Austin Long, I think that the story was to show that you can't beat death, however you can be remembered so even though you can't beat death, you are beating death in the same time because it is your legacy that is living on.. so technically your "presence" is immortal and not your actual self.
Gilgamesh seems to be more of an explanation of human nature than a novel. The story goes into great detail about how Gilgamesh and Enkidu react to various random happenstances, while almost ignoring the standard idea of building a story to have a climax and a resolution.
@Robert I feel he did make a good use of his life since he spent many good times with Enkidu and he helped those around him. He got to see the world and he learned to live his life better afterwards.
I believe you are remembered regardless of if what you did was bad or good. However, the way you will be remembered will directly reflect your actions.
I think he was very successful in being very important person in history. Maybe he didn't achieve his goal exactly but he still taught many lessons, and gave people a story to think about and learn from.
I think Gilgamesh has found a type of immortality. The end of the tale reflects the beginning with Gilgamesh looking at what he will leave behind for future generations.
I agree with Austin, Gilgamesh made the people of Uruk feel secure. He may not have done very many good things in our view but to the people of Uruk he was a hero because he protected them.
I don't think we should ever think of death, we all know we are going to die one day so we have to live our lives to the fullest and be happy with what we do everyday.
I agree with "living life to the fullest" because in a way, knowing that your going to die gives you something to live for and reason to make the most out of your life while you have the chance.
@Robert It depends on how you define a good life. If you consider a good life to be one filled with adventure I would say yes, but the other aspects of his life seem lacking to say the least.
I think intentions are measured by the way people will react to those intentions. The people with right intentions will make someones life better, they will have a positive reaction and people will be glad for that person.
I have to agree with Jillian since without these advancements we'd have already been past the middle of our lives already. With these advancements and those to come, we can make it so that those in the future will be able to live longer, happier lives.
@Austin Long - Did he truly live a good life after he lost the plant of youth? All that the book says is that he goes back to his city and points out how strong and big the city walls are.
I think you're right. This was one of the very first novels ever written probably before conventions such as rising action and climaxes. I think the book was written solely as a warning to those who seek something unobtainable for their whole lives, not just as a bedtime story.
I think that a lot of people don't try to seek enough in their life. I feel that people do not know their potential until they try. Just like in the story, Gilgamesh and Enkadu live to their fullest.
So I feel like Gilgamesh had good intentions because he kept his people safe. He didn't do all that much, as Andrea said, but since he protected his people he should be considered a hero, he made them feel safe.
I had a question regarding to tablet IX. On page 70 to start the chapter it says..."in mourning Enkidu, whose death has brought home to him his own mortality, Gilgamesh leaves Uruk to wander the earth...." So in mourning people's death, and once people die, do we try to better ourselves after those are gone and why? Why don't we constantly try to better ourselves regardless of a death?
@Robert I feel that he would realize that he doesn't need the plant since it wouldn't have kept him from death it only would have prolonged. I feel that he would just want to stop thinking of death and keep from mourning.
"I am seeking the [road] of my forefather, Uta-napishti, who attended the gods' assembly, and [found life eternal] of death and life [he shall tell me his secret]" Wasn't this where Gilgamesh thought of the idea of becoming immortal? I think he thinks he could do anything he set his mind to, and in a way he kind of could.
Justin B - I would disagree. I believe that the story does have a climax, it is just not presented in a format that we recognize very well. The whole book Gilgamesh is seeking immortality, but in the end (at the climax) he loses the plant he has been seeking.
If Gilgamesh had been the one to anger the gods and had been smote instead, would the tale have turned out differently with a level-headed protagonist? Also would it have turned out better?
Robert- I feel like he lived life to the fullest. Maybe after he lost the plant he realized how precious life was. Maybe he then learned that he has alot to appreciate. He is the one of the few that has gone to get the plant. He talked to the gods, he traveled through that dangerous forest. How many people could say they have done that? He can go on in memory for all the great things he had done.
@Justin I understand that, but I feel there is still more beneath the surface. The novel has a huge focus on the dichotomy of emotion and reason. Ex. When Ishtar wants to couple with Gilgamesh and he says no.
@ AshleyM I feel that we are always bettering ourselves regardless of death, It seems that people are always looking to have some way to have good memories. I don't remember a single trip to the hospital, but I remember my friends and the fun activities we did.
Anne- If you don't have a dream what is your motivation to do anything? Everybody has dreams and thats the point to doing things in your life, to build up and progress to that dream.
@Lauren I think besides immortality... that Enkidu's death was another factor that went into his decision, and into his decision to be immortal in the first place.
I don't think people usually WANT to die, or live life trying to die. We live to stay alive. And I don't think its an idea of immortality but I don't think we life thinking about how we die, but more how we live.
I believe it is worth dreaming in the first place because even if you don't reach your ultimate goal you may have a chance to reach another goal. You don't always get everything you want but you get some of the things you want so it's worth trying for everything.
No one knows whats going to be the outcome in any situation. I feel that people should do whatever they feel is right for them and hope for the good. Even if the outcome turns to be something you didn't want it to be, you can learn from that decision and grow from that.
I agree in the conversation. I think that Gilgamesh tried as hard as he could to be immortal. At the same time, I believe that there is a very emotional side of the story. His friend was like a brother to him and he was conquered by death, even with all his power and strength.
@Anne- I think it is worth dreaming because of the great chance of accomplishing what you are dreaming of. And sometimes even just trying to accomplish it is enough. Knowing that you tried and failed is a much better feeling than just not trying at all
@Austin Long, But are we always trying to better ourselves? Everyday do we try to be good individuals? A favorite quote of mine is "do one thing a day that scares you" and I think my question was more like, do we think about how blessed we are everyday to live, or do we take it for granted, and only remember how blessed we are when someone else dies?
It seemed that Gilgamesh didn't want immortality until Enkidu's death. He went out for Humbaba and purposely provoked Ishtar both things that a normal person would have died doing. Do you think he wanted immortality before Enkidu's death other than the thought,"Oh it would be nice to be immortal."?
Jill raises a good point. If the point of Gilgamesh's journey was to gain an appreciation for life, was his ordeal worth the struggle? Would Gilgamesh have been better off as a ignorant tyrant?
I think joe's comment is very true. I feel all dreams have a certain meaning and your suppose to get something out of it, it's just we sometimes don't look into them as much as we should.
Answering Joe's question,I feel like we can tell whats going to happen in the future from the dreams, but I don't think we should totally go from what we get from our dreams because we can never trust them since we don't really know a lot about them..
@AshleyM We do take it for granted, but I don't feel that we really forget that we are blessed for it. I think we try to make our life something we want to feel blessed about. I wouldn't want to die knowing I could have done that one thing but I didn't.
Desperation changes the motivation. Like, if a girl is DESPERATE for a boyfriend they're obviously going to try significantly harder to get a boy to like her. Example: homecoming week. Its like hunting season.
On this topic of fem fatal, I connect the story with kind of a biblical sense. In the beginning, eve influenced the evil in the world with her obsession. We see this still today in girls and their little, sometimes anal obsessions.
The last part of the tale is very reminiscent of the tale of Adam and Eve. Gilgamesh is almost granted eternal life while Adam and Eve attempt for godly knowledge until both are tricked by some serpent. We've been told through media and bible school that the snake represents evil or "Satan", but do you think it represents something more human? Maybe greed or envy?
@Ashley- I love that quote too! It is a great way to live your life. But to your question I think people take everything for granted. People say that you never know what you have till its gone (i know very cliche) but its true. People don't realize how many things in their life matter or how much we have and we just take things for granted. So when someone passes away people think about how much that person actually impacted their life.
@Robert The difference between male roles and female roles in Gilgamesh is that males actually have roles. It is a story that focuses heavily in the masculine aspects of culture, and in the rare instance the female culture is mentioned, it is referred to as subservient and sensual.
@Austin Davis I feel that this novel is fair sided. It portrays Gilgamesh as brash and ignorant yet at the same time Enkidu as level headed and thinking.
It's kind of like with little kids when they swear they are going to get married on the playground. What happened in the story is kind of like that immaturity.
I feel like in this book females dont really have a role. And the roles that they mainly do have it is for the benefit of a an, and they are being used. Tempting Enkidu, and pulling into the underworld.
@Meg- I love your comment about Homecoming Hunting Season. A question, why do we you think we think we need to have that feeling of desperation...more for girls than guys. Do you think that it is just our nature, or more in the world around us.
@ Justin First off, awesome connection. I think in general, the devil is the embodiment of what any culture considers to be regrettable human characteristics. In this way, since Gilgamesh is the quintessential man, you could almost say his quest for immortality was foiled by his own humanity (embodied by the snake).
@Robert I believe that both men and women are powerful in the story. Ex. Anu (Male) and Shamhat (Female) I believe Shamhat uses the power of sex to lure Enkidu from the wilderness and Anu is the most powerful god.
Again, I see in this story a lot of connections with little kids. On the topic of innocence, that happens as kids grow up and are exposed to the world. They see more things, feel more emotions, and learn more everyday. We don't see it as it's happening, but personally, looking back, it is clear how much experience and meeting new people can change a person.
In response to Jade's question, I feel that innocence is the naivety of something harmful. Pain, Evil, Death, the reality of Santa, or like the reality of war.
These tablets weren't written with a feminist theme in mind, we just inject our 21st century ideals into the story. The scribes of early Mesopotamia didn't sit down to demean women or lower their role in society, they merely placed this king Gilgamesh inside the world as it was during that time. Scholars two hundred years from now will do the exact same to some of our most historic novels as well.
I think innocence and maturity go hand in hand. As you get more mature you experience and are exposed to more things. So as you grow up and become more mature you realize that sometimes being innocent can put you in danger. As you become more mature you accept reality and realize things that protect you and help you learn how to protect yourself and are prepared to live on your own.
Maybe innocence could be how you thing things are supposed to be or how you make them up to be. When you learn or find out the reality, are you not innocent any longer?
I feel that innocence is not ignorance. Ignorance to me is purposeful inattention to something you don't want to think about. however innocence is the lack of knowledge of something.
@ the historic Austin Long - I feel, in the case of Santa, you are not innocent when you are told Santa DOES exist, because that is a lie, and lies spoil innocence. Innocence is when we understand the truth and that the world is not perfect but we do not allow ourselves to be tainted or dirtied by the way of the world.
I don't agree with that. I don't think people are more happy when they are more innocent. I think people grow to understand true happiness. Without struggle, we would not understand what it really means to be happy.
I would want to be the person that I am now because through the years you loose your innocence because of the things you go through and as everyday goes on, you grow stronger as a person and look at life with a different perspective differently.
I agree with Katie Perron's comment about innocence. I feel that everyone has their own interpretation of innocence, however I don't think that it is a bad thing to have innocence. I think that you learn more about the world and how everything functions but slowing losing innocence. I think though that innocence should be lost at the person's own pace, and not just taken away from children. Examples, in some other countries some kids are exposed to guns at a young age, so their innocence is being taken away, and they grow up without innocence, they are mature at an age that they shouldn't be. Whereas here in the U.S. we are mostly exposed to things in the world as you grow up and you are ready for it.
@jenny I think innocence is not a bad thing because i feel that when children lose their innocence is a part of growing up. We may lose our imagination but we also gain intelligence.
@Robert They way I see it, the only difference in the sea-side inn owner is that she has a mystical and sacred quality. She could have been a demigod for all we know.
Innocence to me is freedom, and being carefree. The ability to wander about your life without worrying about the consequences or the places or situations you put yourself in. Without a doubt that anything bad could happen and full of joy. Innocence is bliss.
@Robert I feel like we are given a knowledge of the existence of Santa and we feel that that is truth. We don't know that he isn't real until we are told so.
@Jenica I agree with you completely, we are innocent as children because we don't know anything about life since we just got here. But as we grow, experience, and learn more about life..we loose our innocence.
I think that humanity yearns and strives to obtain perfection...whatever that definition may be among individuals. For some, it's God. For some, wealth and luxury, or success. To obtain perfection in the likeness of God is what creates goals and morals.
Austin- Isn't it related-able though? Innocence can be going to 5 points, and not worrying about people and not understanding that people do bad things and could steal from you. Ignorance could be oblivious to the fact that people do steal, and if you give them the opportunity they will. Either way they have the same thinking process and are too free of worry to be concerned.
Is it ok for a god to not be perfect? Does it give someone satisfaction knowing that it is ok to be imperfect and not have to live up to such high standards that are perhaps unreachable?
@Ashley I don't think having innocence is bad, but to a certain extent it can be. Like you said age is really important in this case, because it is hard to see kids in other countries drinking alcohol or holding guns, but I think once you get to a certain age you need to lose innocence in order to grasp what is going on in the world around you. It isn't good to be sheltered from reality because you will never understand how other people live. If you don't know of the horrible things in the world how would you know what you are doing is good or "innocent" if you don't know what isn't
...possibly, Gilgamesh had goals and longings to be perfect to the god he believed in. The way people saw their gods then was different than that of today.
Everyone has a different perception of "perfect". To Jillian's comment about, people see the Gods as perfect, but "perfect" changes. What about the people that don't believe in Gods, is it saying that the idea of "perfect" can't be achieved without knowing that a "God" is perfect?
I don't think Gods are perfect because they have made mistakes too in their life since they have human like features...basically no one is perfect, even if they are a God or not.
So who do you think the hero is? I feel that Gilgamesh is the hero because he did everything that we spoke of in A hero's Journey, conflict, meeting Enkidu, journey from home, going to Humbaba, Being in a strange world, The forest of Cedar, I'm sure I'm missing something, then the journey home.
Everyone talks about losing innocence as if it is something that is forcibly taken from you. It is something you can control, you can believe in Santa, believe in a deity or ignore the consequences of war. Innocence is a state we grow out of by ourselves, not saying all the time but most. "Losing" innocence is not something to be regretted, it is simply a different perception.
Anyone share my opinion that Shamash is, if not the hero, one of the heros of the story? She is always moral from our point of view, and from what we see, very wise. (Humbaba might disagree)
I think this book definitely is the story of a hero. It is about one who strives for power in the beginning, but ends up obtaining more than they could have asked for because they change in heart. They become less selfish and they end up being that more humble person who has seen struggle and lived through it.
I agree with Jillian- If Enkidu and Gilgamesh switched personalities and Enkidu lived, I don't think he would have went on a search for immorality. He seems to be content with his life and likes living in the moment, unlike Gilgamesh who went on the quest for immorality.
@Ashley- I feel god is someone/thing that people look at as a guide to be perfect. Maybe god isn't perfect but people believe he is the closest to it. And if you don't believe in god who says you have to look up to someone as being perfect? Everyone has their own beliefs in what makes someone perfect and if you don't believe in god you just think of what characteristics would make up someone to be perfect
To Katie Perron's comment, I think that yes we are constantly striving however, I think that some people are content with what/and who they are instead of striving for anything.
Well, I believe this epics purpose was as a story for the people to Babylonia to understand their own significance in the world. It almost seems like it is saying "humans die, face it and live". I think it is interesting in how it ends because it is so abrupt, which I think contributes to this purpose. The reader hopes that Gilgamesh does not waste the rest of his life mourning for the loss of a plant, but rather we hope that he lives a "good life". To me, what constitutes that in Gilgamesh’s case is that he would live as a virtuous, just and wise king. I do not think he was living life to the fullest until Enkidu came around, with the arrival of Enkidu Gilgamesh seemed to see the error of his ways. An example of this is when they first met and fought about how Gilgamesh was sleeping with the brides before they were married. I don’t think Gilgamesh had any evil intentions; he was just a restless young man. Addressing the dreams part of this conversation, I would argue that Gilgamesh’s want for immortality is not necessarily a dream but a desire want or even obsession. To me a dream is a vision of the future someone has for themselves. Gilgamesh did not foresee himself living eternally nor did he know what he would do even if he achieved his goal. He was afraid. He even admits it "How can i keep silent? How can I stay quiet? My friend, whom I loved, has turned to clay ... [shall] I not be like him and also lie down, never to rise again, through all eternity?" (Tablet X, line 244) Lastly, for the male vs. female roles I agree with the person who said females did not have roles. Uta-napishi's wife was also immortal, but all the focus went on him because it was perceived that he had the wisdom of eternity. However, it is interesting to me that many of the goddesses were important throughout the story (Gilgamesh's mom blessing the fight against Humbaba, Ishtar’s bull of heaven etc.). I wonder if there is significance between females mortal roles vs immortal female roles.
I think that the epic of Gilgamesh is more of a life lesson than a story. It's saying that you have to live your life to the fullest no matter what. Bad things are going to happen to happen and you have to keep moving forward no matter what. For example, Enkidu dies and Gilgamesh still has to keep living. He can't dwell on the fact that he is gone and he's lost his best friend. When everyone was talking about innocence I was thinking that you there are innocent people in life and personally I feel bad for them. I feel bad because I feel like they haven't truly experienced life. Which leads me to answer Roberts question and I would say innocence is more of the fourth definition. Also, for when everyone was talking about dreams I think that Gilgamesh had a want or desire for immortality. I didn't think that it was a need for immortality. In the beginning in the epic I do feel Gilgamesh was in the need of immortality, though, because he was wasting his life away. But as the epic went on I believe that he had more of a want for it because he was living his life to the fullest and he wanted to keep doing that. He didn't want to die, he wanted to keep having adventures and stuff. I don't think it was a dream because to me a dream is something you want to accomplish in the future. You want to fulfill the dreams you have. Finally, Men vs. Women. I do not think that women had a role in the epic. To me, it seemed like women were worthless, unless a goddess or called upon by a man to do something. Women were just used to marry and sleep with and not revealant in the story unless they were a goddess or called upon by a man to do something that he could not do. For example, get Enkidu to fight Gilgamesh.
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ReplyDeleteWhat symbolism does Gilgamesh's inability to find to find an answer to living forever say about humannity?
ReplyDeleteIt was the creation story...
ReplyDeleteThe purpose for telling this story was probably to show that you can't beat death no matter what you do. It says to live your life to its fullest.
ReplyDeleteExactly, what good did Gilgamesh bring? Or did he just teach lessons...
ReplyDelete@Austin Davis
ReplyDeleteIt shows that we shouldn't waste our lives trying to beat death.
I think the moral of the Epic of Gilgamesh is that life won't work out as planned if someone had bad intentions. It has to do with creation because it shows that life in general won't go on in the right "way" without the right intentions.
ReplyDeleteIf people have made a great impact in their lives and others, they should be remembered and honored for what they did.
ReplyDeletei feel like if you don't have a goal in life theres no point to live
ReplyDelete@Krisana
ReplyDeleteDo you mean the story or the character himself?
I feel that in the story he got rid of the evil Humbaba and he protected the people of Uruk.
I think it shows that you can still work hard for something and not always have it work out. I think it also may saying that life is more about the journey than the destination. He may not have beaten death but he did a lot when he was alive.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Austin's comment, I would say that Gilgamesh's inability to find immortality mirrors the plight of every human being. Every one wishes they could achieve more or become greater, but every human is faced with a short life that they must make the most of. Did Gilgamesh make a good use of his life?
ReplyDeleteDoes what you do (good or bad) matter in terms of being remembered?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Austin Long, I think that the story was to show that you can't beat death, however you can be remembered so even though you can't beat death, you are beating death in the same time because it is your legacy that is living on.. so technically your "presence" is immortal and not your actual self.
ReplyDelete@Anne S. If right people are the only people with the 'right intentions' go on, what does that say about bad people within the society?
ReplyDeleteGilgamesh seems to be more of an explanation of human nature than a novel. The story goes into great detail about how Gilgamesh and Enkidu react to various random happenstances, while almost ignoring the standard idea of building a story to have a climax and a resolution.
ReplyDelete"Where you've set your mind begin the journey, let your heart have no fear, keep your eyes on me!" Pg. 29
ReplyDelete@Robert
ReplyDeleteI feel he did make a good use of his life since he spent many good times with Enkidu and he helped those around him. He got to see the world and he learned to live his life better afterwards.
I believe you are remembered regardless of if what you did was bad or good. However, the way you will be remembered will directly reflect your actions.
ReplyDeleteI think he was very successful in being very important person in history. Maybe he didn't achieve his goal exactly but he still taught many lessons, and gave people a story to think about and learn from.
ReplyDeleteI think Gilgamesh has found a type of immortality. The end of the tale reflects the beginning with Gilgamesh looking at what he will leave behind for future generations.
ReplyDelete@Austin Davis- Who determines what "right" intentions are? How are intentions measured?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Austin, Gilgamesh made the people of Uruk feel secure. He may not have done very many good things in our view but to the people of Uruk he was a hero because he protected them.
ReplyDeleteI don't think we should ever think of death, we all know we are going to die one day so we have to live our lives to the fullest and be happy with what we do everyday.
ReplyDeleteI agree with "living life to the fullest" because in a way, knowing that your going to die gives you something to live for and reason to make the most out of your life while you have the chance.
ReplyDelete@Robert
ReplyDeleteIt depends on how you define a good life. If you consider a good life to be one filled with adventure I would say yes, but the other aspects of his life seem lacking to say the least.
In response to Anne S' question, I think the base situation is the concept that any publicity is good publicity in the world of Gilgamesh.
ReplyDeleteI think that it doesn't matter if you are good or bad to be remembered because good people are remembered and bad people are remembered too.
ReplyDeleteI think intentions are measured by the way people will react to those intentions. The people with right intentions will make someones life better, they will have a positive reaction and people will be glad for that person.
ReplyDelete@Ashley
ReplyDeleteYes, but I am aware of few people who crave infamy.
I have to agree with Jillian since without these advancements we'd have already been past the middle of our lives already. With these advancements and those to come, we can make it so that those in the future will be able to live longer, happier lives.
ReplyDelete@Austin Long - Did he truly live a good life after he lost the plant of youth? All that the book says is that he goes back to his city and points out how strong and big the city walls are.
ReplyDeleteEric-
ReplyDeleteI think you're right. This was one of the very first novels ever written probably before conventions such as rising action and climaxes. I think the book was written solely as a warning to those who seek something unobtainable for their whole lives, not just as a bedtime story.
i agree with ashley and i think it in the end depends if you feel accomplished with yourself.
ReplyDeleteAside from the desire for immortality, are there any other factors that may have affected Gilgamesh's decisions?
ReplyDeleteI think that a lot of people don't try to seek enough in their life. I feel that people do not know their potential until they try. Just like in the story, Gilgamesh and Enkadu live to their fullest.
ReplyDeleteIs it wasting valuable life time to search for something bigger for when after life comes while you are still trying to live life in the present?
ReplyDeleteBad people have to remembered in order to learn from them.
ReplyDeleteSo I feel like Gilgamesh had good intentions because he kept his people safe. He didn't do all that much, as Andrea said, but since he protected his people he should be considered a hero, he made them feel safe.
ReplyDeleteI had a question regarding to tablet IX. On page 70 to start the chapter it says..."in mourning Enkidu, whose death has brought home to him his own mortality, Gilgamesh leaves Uruk to wander the earth...." So in mourning people's death, and once people die, do we try to better ourselves after those are gone and why? Why don't we constantly try to better ourselves regardless of a death?
ReplyDelete@Robert
ReplyDeleteI feel that he would realize that he doesn't need the plant since it wouldn't have kept him from death it only would have prolonged. I feel that he would just want to stop thinking of death and keep from mourning.
"I am seeking the [road] of my forefather, Uta-napishti, who attended the gods' assembly, and [found life eternal] of death and life [he shall tell me his secret]" Wasn't this where Gilgamesh thought of the idea of becoming immortal? I think he thinks he could do anything he set his mind to, and in a way he kind of could.
ReplyDeleteJustin B - I would disagree. I believe that the story does have a climax, it is just not presented in a format that we recognize very well. The whole book Gilgamesh is seeking immortality, but in the end (at the climax) he loses the plant he has been seeking.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIf dreams are crushed (ex. Gilgamesh's quest for immortality), is it worth dreaming in the first place?
ReplyDeleteIf Gilgamesh had been the one to anger the gods and had been smote instead, would the tale have turned out differently with a level-headed protagonist? Also would it have turned out better?
ReplyDeleteRobert- I feel like he lived life to the fullest. Maybe after he lost the plant he realized how precious life was. Maybe he then learned that he has alot to appreciate. He is the one of the few that has gone to get the plant. He talked to the gods, he traveled through that dangerous forest. How many people could say they have done that? He can go on in memory for all the great things he had done.
ReplyDelete@Justin
ReplyDeleteI understand that, but I feel there is still more beneath the surface. The novel has a huge focus on the dichotomy of emotion and reason.
Ex. When Ishtar wants to couple with Gilgamesh and he says no.
@ AshleyM
ReplyDeleteI feel that we are always bettering ourselves regardless of death, It seems that people are always looking to have some way to have good memories. I don't remember a single trip to the hospital, but I remember my friends and the fun activities we did.
Anne-
ReplyDeleteIf you don't have a dream what is your motivation to do anything? Everybody has dreams and thats the point to doing things in your life, to build up and progress to that dream.
@Lauren
ReplyDeleteI think besides immortality... that Enkidu's death was another factor that went into his decision, and into his decision to be immortal in the first place.
I don't think people usually WANT to die, or live life trying to die. We live to stay alive. And I don't think its an idea of immortality but I don't think we life thinking about how we die, but more how we live.
ReplyDeleteI believe it is worth dreaming in the first place because even if you don't reach your ultimate goal you may have a chance to reach another goal. You don't always get everything you want but you get some of the things you want so it's worth trying for everything.
ReplyDeleteNo one knows whats going to be the outcome in any situation. I feel that people should do whatever they feel is right for them and hope for the good. Even if the outcome turns to be something you didn't want it to be, you can learn from that decision and grow from that.
ReplyDeleteI agree in the conversation. I think that Gilgamesh tried as hard as he could to be immortal. At the same time, I believe that there is a very emotional side of the story. His friend was like a brother to him and he was conquered by death, even with all his power and strength.
ReplyDelete@Ashley,
ReplyDeleteCould you please elaborate?
P.S. I love you.
@Anne- I think it is worth dreaming because of the great chance of accomplishing what you are dreaming of. And sometimes even just trying to accomplish it is enough. Knowing that you tried and failed is a much better feeling than just not trying at all
ReplyDelete@Austin Long,
ReplyDeleteBut are we always trying to better ourselves? Everyday do we try to be good individuals? A favorite quote of mine is "do one thing a day that scares you" and I think my question was more like, do we think about how blessed we are everyday to live, or do we take it for granted, and only remember how blessed we are when someone else dies?
It seemed that Gilgamesh didn't want immortality until Enkidu's death. He went out for Humbaba and purposely provoked Ishtar both things that a normal person would have died doing. Do you think he wanted immortality before Enkidu's death other than the thought,"Oh it would be nice to be immortal."?
ReplyDeleteJill raises a good point. If the point of Gilgamesh's journey was to gain an appreciation for life, was his ordeal worth the struggle? Would Gilgamesh have been better off as a ignorant tyrant?
ReplyDeleteI think joe's comment is very true. I feel all dreams have a certain meaning and your suppose to get something out of it, it's just we sometimes don't look into them as much as we should.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think Enkidu's death had inspired Gilgamesh to aspire to be immortal?
ReplyDeleteAnswering Joe's question,I feel like we can tell whats going to happen in the future from the dreams, but I don't think we should totally go from what we get from our dreams because we can never trust them since we don't really know a lot about them..
ReplyDeleteHow can desperation change someone?
ReplyDelete@Austin
ReplyDeleteI think it definitely crossed his mind, him being a king.
Going off the middle circle's discussion, how are the male roles different from the female roles?
ReplyDelete@AshleyM
ReplyDeleteWe do take it for granted, but I don't feel that we really forget that we are blessed for it. I think we try to make our life something we want to feel blessed about. I wouldn't want to die knowing I could have done that one thing but I didn't.
Fact:Girls are obsessed with boys..
ReplyDeleteDesperation changes the motivation.
ReplyDeleteLike, if a girl is DESPERATE for a boyfriend they're obviously going to try significantly harder to get a boy to like her.
Example: homecoming week. Its like hunting season.
On this topic of fem fatal, I connect the story with kind of a biblical sense. In the beginning, eve influenced the evil in the world with her obsession. We see this still today in girls and their little, sometimes anal obsessions.
ReplyDelete@Robert,
ReplyDeleteI believe that then men are portrayed as being rash, egotistical and narcissistic whereas women are weak, emotionally driven and obsessive.
Can this novel be seen through a feministic lens?
ReplyDeleteThe last part of the tale is very reminiscent of the tale of Adam and Eve. Gilgamesh is almost granted eternal life while Adam and Eve attempt for godly knowledge until both are tricked by some serpent. We've been told through media and bible school that the snake represents evil or "Satan", but do you think it represents something more human? Maybe greed or envy?
ReplyDelete@Ashley- I love that quote too! It is a great way to live your life. But to your question I think people take everything for granted. People say that you never know what you have till its gone (i know very cliche) but its true. People don't realize how many things in their life matter or how much we have and we just take things for granted. So when someone passes away people think about how much that person actually impacted their life.
ReplyDeleteI think the men's roles are to do something in life that they'll be remembered by and the girls roles are to do all the house work and raise a family
ReplyDelete@Robert
ReplyDeleteThe difference between male roles and female roles in Gilgamesh is that males actually have roles. It is a story that focuses heavily in the masculine aspects of culture, and in the rare instance the female culture is mentioned, it is referred to as subservient and sensual.
Lauren - but what are some of the positive characteristics of the different genders? Like strength or intelligence or bravery or obedience...?
ReplyDelete@Austin Davis
ReplyDeleteI feel that this novel is fair sided. It portrays Gilgamesh as brash and ignorant yet at the same time Enkidu as level headed and thinking.
It's kind of like with little kids when they swear they are going to get married on the playground. What happened in the story is kind of like that immaturity.
ReplyDeleteI think woman can be thought of as dependent. It isn't always that they are obsessed but they depend on men to make them happy sometimes.
ReplyDeleteI feel like in this book females dont really have a role. And the roles that they mainly do have it is for the benefit of a an, and they are being used. Tempting Enkidu, and pulling into the underworld.
ReplyDeleteHow does age change innocence? Can you compare innocence and maturity?
ReplyDelete@Meg- I love your comment about Homecoming Hunting Season. A question, why do we you think we think we need to have that feeling of desperation...more for girls than guys. Do you think that it is just our nature, or more in the world around us.
ReplyDelete@ALONG-Yes, but originally Enkidu was presumed to be more savage? What do you think that says about development of man?
ReplyDelete@ Justin
ReplyDeleteFirst off, awesome connection. I think in general, the devil is the embodiment of what any culture considers to be regrettable human characteristics. In this way, since Gilgamesh is the quintessential man, you could almost say his quest for immortality was foiled by his own humanity (embodied by the snake).
@Eric - But what about the tavern keeper who lives by the sea? How is she different from the other female characters?
ReplyDeleteI don't think that this book completely chooses men over women because if they did think that males were better then why did they have women gods?
ReplyDelete@Robert
ReplyDeleteI believe that both men and women are powerful in the story.
Ex. Anu (Male) and Shamhat (Female)
I believe Shamhat uses the power of sex to lure Enkidu from the wilderness and Anu is the most powerful god.
Again, I see in this story a lot of connections with little kids. On the topic of innocence, that happens as kids grow up and are exposed to the world. They see more things, feel more emotions, and learn more everyday. We don't see it as it's happening, but personally, looking back, it is clear how much experience and meeting new people can change a person.
ReplyDeleteWhat does innocence mean to you?
ReplyDeleteI say that innocence is revolved around the things you do, not by the things you have seen or had happen to you.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Jade's question, I feel that innocence is the naivety of something harmful. Pain, Evil, Death, the reality of Santa, or like the reality of war.
ReplyDelete@ Jenica
ReplyDeleteThere may be female gods but the most powerful god is male.
@Meg- I agree but what about the goddesses, like Ninsun? She is portrayed as very motherly and a caregiver but she also seems to have some power
ReplyDeleteAnn S-Age and innocence have inverse effects. As we grow, we lose our innocence at either an emotional or physical level.
ReplyDeleteThese tablets weren't written with a feminist theme in mind, we just inject our 21st century ideals into the story. The scribes of early Mesopotamia didn't sit down to demean women or lower their role in society, they merely placed this king Gilgamesh inside the world as it was during that time. Scholars two hundred years from now will do the exact same to some of our most historic novels as well.
ReplyDeleteI think innocence and maturity go hand in hand. As you get more mature you experience and are exposed to more things. So as you grow up and become more mature you realize that sometimes being innocent can put you in danger. As you become more mature you accept reality and realize things that protect you and help you learn how to protect yourself and are prepared to live on your own.
ReplyDeleteMaybe innocence could be how you thing things are supposed to be or how you make them up to be. When you learn or find out the reality, are you not innocent any longer?
ReplyDeleteI feel that innocence is not ignorance. Ignorance to me is purposeful inattention to something you don't want to think about. however innocence is the lack of knowledge of something.
ReplyDelete@ the historic Austin Long - I feel, in the case of Santa, you are not innocent when you are told Santa DOES exist, because that is a lie, and lies spoil innocence. Innocence is when we understand the truth and that the world is not perfect but we do not allow ourselves to be tainted or dirtied by the way of the world.
ReplyDeleteI don't agree with that. I don't think people are more happy when they are more innocent. I think people grow to understand true happiness. Without struggle, we would not understand what it really means to be happy.
ReplyDeleteI would want to be the person that I am now because through the years you loose your innocence because of the things you go through and as everyday goes on, you grow stronger as a person and look at life with a different perspective differently.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Katie Perron's comment about innocence. I feel that everyone has their own interpretation of innocence, however I don't think that it is a bad thing to have innocence. I think that you learn more about the world and how everything functions but slowing losing innocence. I think though that innocence should be lost at the person's own pace, and not just taken away from children. Examples, in some other countries some kids are exposed to guns at a young age, so their innocence is being taken away, and they grow up without innocence, they are mature at an age that they shouldn't be. Whereas here in the U.S. we are mostly exposed to things in the world as you grow up and you are ready for it.
ReplyDelete@jenny
ReplyDeleteI think innocence is not a bad thing because i feel that when children lose their innocence is a part of growing up. We may lose our imagination but we also gain intelligence.
@Robert
ReplyDeleteThey way I see it, the only difference in the sea-side inn owner is that she has a mystical and sacred quality. She could have been a demigod for all we know.
Innocence to me is freedom, and being carefree. The ability to wander about your life without worrying about the consequences or the places or situations you put yourself in. Without a doubt that anything bad could happen and full of joy. Innocence is bliss.
ReplyDelete@Robert
ReplyDeleteI feel like we are given a knowledge of the existence of Santa and we feel that that is truth. We don't know that he isn't real until we are told so.
@Jenica
ReplyDeleteI agree with you completely, we are innocent as children because we don't know anything about life since we just got here. But as we grow, experience, and learn more about life..we loose our innocence.
@EricL
ReplyDeletepg.75 TabletX "Beyond the garden, by the sea-shore, lives a wise old goddess," summary
I think that humanity yearns and strives to obtain perfection...whatever that definition may be among individuals. For some, it's God. For some, wealth and luxury, or success. To obtain perfection in the likeness of God is what creates goals and morals.
ReplyDeleteAustin-
ReplyDeleteIsn't it related-able though?
Innocence can be going to 5 points, and not worrying about people and not understanding that people do bad things and could steal from you.
Ignorance could be oblivious to the fact that people do steal, and if you give them the opportunity they will.
Either way they have the same thinking process and are too free of worry to be concerned.
@Robert
ReplyDeleteRight, but we are not aware of the fact that it is a lie until that is revealed to us. Having faith does not make us lack innocence.
Is it ok for a god to not be perfect? Does it give someone satisfaction knowing that it is ok to be imperfect and not have to live up to such high standards that are perhaps unreachable?
ReplyDeleteHEY EVERYONE
ReplyDeleteThis is the dictionary definition for innocence. Which one do you most agree with?
in·no·cence
noun
1.
the quality or state of being innocent; freedom from sin or moral wrong.
2.
freedom from legal or specific wrong; guiltlessness: The prisoner proved his innocence.
3.
simplicity; absence of guile or cunning; naiveté.
4.
lack of knowledge or understanding.
5.
harmlessness; innocuousness.
from Dictionary.com
@Austin
ReplyDeleteThank you. So the reason she was different is because she was a god.
@Meg
ReplyDeleteSo do you think that we were always going to be innocent ever since we were little?
When do we lose our innocence?? What has to happen to lose innocence (expierence wise)
ReplyDelete@Ashley
ReplyDeleteI don't think having innocence is bad, but to a certain extent it can be. Like you said age is really important in this case, because it is hard to see kids in other countries drinking alcohol or holding guns, but I think once you get to a certain age you need to lose innocence in order to grasp what is going on in the world around you. It isn't good to be sheltered from reality because you will never understand how other people live. If you don't know of the horrible things in the world how would you know what you are doing is good or "innocent" if you don't know what isn't
@Eric
ReplyDeleteYes
@Robert
Definition 1
...possibly, Gilgamesh had goals and longings to be perfect to the god he believed in. The way people saw their gods then was different than that of today.
ReplyDeleteEveryone has a different perception of "perfect". To Jillian's comment about, people see the Gods as perfect, but "perfect" changes. What about the people that don't believe in Gods, is it saying that the idea of "perfect" can't be achieved without knowing that a "God" is perfect?
ReplyDeleteI don't think Gods are perfect because they have made mistakes too in their life since they have human like features...basically no one is perfect, even if they are a God or not.
ReplyDelete@MRietveld
ReplyDeleteWe loose our innocence when we are lured out of the wild by a hunter and lay with a woman for a week. :)
So who do you think the hero is? I feel that Gilgamesh is the hero because he did everything that we spoke of in A hero's Journey, conflict, meeting Enkidu, journey from home, going to Humbaba, Being in a strange world, The forest of Cedar, I'm sure I'm missing something, then the journey home.
ReplyDeleteEveryone talks about losing innocence as if it is something that is forcibly taken from you. It is something you can control, you can believe in Santa, believe in a deity or ignore the consequences of war. Innocence is a state we grow out of by ourselves, not saying all the time but most. "Losing" innocence is not something to be regretted, it is simply a different perception.
ReplyDelete@Andrea- very true, good point, you don't know what innocence if you are never exposed to it.
ReplyDelete@Eric
ReplyDeleteDo you believe that there are other things that cause us to loose our innocence or just sexual relations?
Anyone share my opinion that Shamash is, if not the hero, one of the heros of the story? She is always moral from our point of view, and from what we see, very wise. (Humbaba might disagree)
ReplyDeleteI think this book definitely is the story of a hero. It is about one who strives for power in the beginning, but ends up obtaining more than they could have asked for because they change in heart. They become less selfish and they end up being that more humble person who has seen struggle and lived through it.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Jillian- If Enkidu and Gilgamesh switched personalities and Enkidu lived, I don't think he would have went on a search for immorality. He seems to be content with his life and likes living in the moment, unlike Gilgamesh who went on the quest for immorality.
ReplyDeleteI think we all should strive for the best in life, but that can always mean different things for different people.
ReplyDelete@Ashley-
ReplyDeleteI feel god is someone/thing that people look at as a guide to be perfect. Maybe god isn't perfect but people believe he is the closest to it. And if you don't believe in god who says you have to look up to someone as being perfect? Everyone has their own beliefs in what makes someone perfect and if you don't believe in god you just think of what characteristics would make up someone to be perfect
To Katie Perron's comment, I think that yes we are constantly striving however, I think that some people are content with what/and who they are instead of striving for anything.
ReplyDeleteWell, I believe this epics purpose was as a story for the people to Babylonia to understand their own significance in the world. It almost seems like it is saying "humans die, face it and live". I think it is interesting in how it ends because it is so abrupt, which I think contributes to this purpose. The reader hopes that Gilgamesh does not waste the rest of his life mourning for the loss of a plant, but rather we hope that he lives a "good life". To me, what constitutes that in Gilgamesh’s case is that he would live as a virtuous, just and wise king. I do not think he was living life to the fullest until Enkidu came around, with the arrival of Enkidu Gilgamesh seemed to see the error of his ways. An example of this is when they first met and fought about how Gilgamesh was sleeping with the brides before they were married. I don’t think Gilgamesh had any evil intentions; he was just a restless young man.
ReplyDeleteAddressing the dreams part of this conversation, I would argue that Gilgamesh’s want for immortality is not necessarily a dream but a desire want or even obsession. To me a dream is a vision of the future someone has for themselves. Gilgamesh did not foresee himself living eternally nor did he know what he would do even if he achieved his goal. He was afraid. He even admits it "How can i keep silent? How can I stay quiet? My friend, whom I loved, has turned to clay ... [shall] I not be like him and also lie down, never to rise again, through all eternity?" (Tablet X, line 244)
Lastly, for the male vs. female roles I agree with the person who said females did not have roles. Uta-napishi's wife was also immortal, but all the focus went on him because it was perceived that he had the wisdom of eternity. However, it is interesting to me that many of the goddesses were important throughout the story (Gilgamesh's mom blessing the fight against Humbaba, Ishtar’s bull of heaven etc.). I wonder if there is significance between females mortal roles vs immortal female roles.
I think that the epic of Gilgamesh is more of a life lesson than a story. It's saying that you have to live your life to the fullest no matter what. Bad things are going to happen to happen and you have to keep moving forward no matter what. For example, Enkidu dies and Gilgamesh still has to keep living. He can't dwell on the fact that he is gone and he's lost his best friend.
ReplyDeleteWhen everyone was talking about innocence I was thinking that you there are innocent people in life and personally I feel bad for them. I feel bad because I feel like they haven't truly experienced life. Which leads me to answer Roberts question and I would say innocence is more of the fourth definition.
Also, for when everyone was talking about dreams I think that Gilgamesh had a want or desire for immortality. I didn't think that it was a need for immortality. In the beginning in the epic I do feel Gilgamesh was in the need of immortality, though, because he was wasting his life away. But as the epic went on I believe that he had more of a want for it because he was living his life to the fullest and he wanted to keep doing that. He didn't want to die, he wanted to keep having adventures and stuff. I don't think it was a dream because to me a dream is something you want to accomplish in the future. You want to fulfill the dreams you have.
Finally, Men vs. Women. I do not think that women had a role in the epic. To me, it seemed like women were worthless, unless a goddess or called upon by a man to do something. Women were just used to marry and sleep with and not revealant in the story unless they were a goddess or called upon by a man to do something that he could not do. For example, get Enkidu to fight Gilgamesh.